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Cops, psychologist give insight on shootings, tasings

by OWEN LEI / KING 5 News

KING5.com

Posted on September 5, 2010 at 9:57 AM

Updated Sunday, Sep 5 at 10:55 AM

LYNNWOOD, Wash. -- As law enforcement agencies across the region deal with a weeklong string of officer-involved incidents, most of them fatal, counselors and cops give some perspective.

 "On an individual officer, it's going to get their intention," said Dr. Norman Mar, a psychologist who works with police. "How often do they use levels of force, how often do they escalate, how does it fit into... the sector they're patrolling, as well as the activities that are going on."

On Monday, a Seattle police officer shot and killed John T. Williams in downtown Seattle, investigators said, after he ignored commands to drop his carving knife.

On Tuesday, Pierce County deputies say they hit King Ramses Hoover with a taser when he was unruly, but he stopped breathing and died. The same day, Federal Way Police shot and killed David Young, a 23-year-old in a stolen truck.

On Friday afternoon, Tacoma Police killed a homeless man who was threatening people with a knife, they said. That night, three Seattle Police officers shot a 59-year-old man who they say leveled an AK-47 at them. That man survived.

On Saturday, deputies in Gold Bar tased Adam Colliers, 27, but he stopped breathing and died as well.

But Mar also cautions not to read too much into the concentration of these events. 

"Both historically and currently, what usually happens is that ... factors leading up to incidents are often less about individual officers or agency policies... and other societal factors," he said. "It's more likely to be an anomaly and a factor of a matter of circumstances."

Trooper Sean O'Connell with the Washington State Patrol said he's fortunate to have never had to fire a gun or taser a suspect. But, he said, like being struck by a vehicle, it is a concern that crosses his mind when he pulls someone over for a traffic violation.

"Any police officer, state trooper, deputy, we're all peace officers, [and] would agree, you're always playing  the 'what if?' game," he said.

Each case has had different circumstances, with authorities in each saying the officers involved felt justified at the moment in what they did.  But each is still under investigation as well.

O'Connell says for most officers, it comes back to training, and knowing when the suspect is a danger to those around them, including fellow officers. 

"Once you report to work, ultimately you are a law enforcement officer, and unfortunately there are people who choose to harm law enforcement officers,"  said O'Connell, whose patrol car includes decals paying tribute to six Western Washington officers killed on duty last year. "Once you put your uniform on and you go to work you always say ... 'What if I was in that situation?' It very well could happen where I work." 

And in a tense situation, O'Connell expects training will take precedence over any other emotions.  Mar agreed.

"On a higher level, in terms of precinct, watch commander, agencies, command staff will often ask, 'Is there something we're doing in our jurisdiction where we're seeing an uptick?' [But] my experience with command staff, with counties, Seattle PD, is that they are looking at that stuff on an ongoing basis," he said.

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Comments: Displaying 1 - 15 of 47

bobknows said on September 9, 2010 at 7:53 AM

Since 9/11/01 far more Americans have been murdered on our streets by our own home grown terrorist gangs in blue/brown shirts than died in the WTC towers, the Iraq war, and the Afghanistan war combined. Seven men were murdered just last week, and just in Washington state. No American is safe while these murderous terrorist gangs are roaming our streets murdering good men.

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oldguy said on September 7, 2010 at 3:43 AM

Law enforcement is a tough job. I did a few years of it long ago and learned to hate having to wear a uniform because once you put it on you were constantly dealing with two kinds of people: those who buttered you up with B.S., or those who hated your guts. Law enforcement is public defense. But being too defensive can be aggressive. Knowing just how much is necessary is a judgment call and every one of us does that differently. A good cop has to be suspicious, but no one likes being treated with suspicion...not even good people. Worse, the longer anyone is in a war zone, the more defensive one gets. After catching hell a few times, guess how you treat the next person? One of the first things I was taught was the difficulty in maintaining a proper attitude. Keep in mind that government of, by, and for the people won’t be a darn bit better than the people. So if you have complaints, take a good look at yourself too. We're all in this together.

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bobknows said on September 6, 2010 at 11:44 AM

It still amazes me the number of "support the killer cops" comments these stories receive. I would love, for each and every pro-killer person to have a friend or rotative killed by a LEO when he called them. Then maybe they will understand. LEOs are life threatening, They are the schoolyard bullies grown up. But the main thing to remember is that without the LEOs of this country, we would all be living in a much less dangerous world. Imagine being able to enjoy your life without worrying if some pig will bust you or kill you. Imagine not having drug users have to rob people to get stuff to sell for more drugs. Imagine not having armed highwaymen lying in wait to rob drivers. Imagine being able to call for help and not being tasered or shot by the guy who shows up. LEOs deserve our scorn for all the whining about danger when OSHA statistics show that farming, logging, construction, and many other men's jobs are a lot more dangerous. We the people don't need the evil hired killers

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oldguy said on September 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM

Just reading these comments makes one wonder why anyone would want to be a cop. It's a profession that could be boring and tedious one moment and surprise you with a raging crisis the next. The key word is surprise. The cop has to make instant judgments that others have all day or even weeks to be Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Can you blame them for feeling that it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six?

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shadowe said on September 6, 2010 at 8:38 AM

It still amazes me the number of "get rid of the cops" comments stories receive. I would love, for each and every anti-cop person to have a true need of a LEO and not get one when needed. Not anything life threatening, or, wait, maybe yes life threatening situation, then maybe they will understand. LEOs use the needed means to get their jobs done, sometimes they make mistakes, they are human after all. But the main thing to remember is that without the LEOs of this country, we would all be living in a much more dangerous world. Imagine not being able to summon help when your druggie neighbor decided to come in and rob your house, to get stuff to sell for more drugs. Imagine not having any help to find your family member/child that was just abducted. Imagine not being able to call for help when there is some crazy lunatic holding your family member(s) hostage for whatever reason. Where would you be then? LEOs deserve our support and respect for the dangerous job they do.

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melonkelly said on September 6, 2010 at 8:26 AM

Cop's are a necessity to our modern lives. They serve to protect us from ourselves, others and situations that escalate from bad to worse. But, who is to say where those lines are in cases involving public safety. Was the wood whittler, really a threat to the public, or the man in Tacoma? A lot of homeless people carry knives on them not only for protection but as a tool they can utilize in a variety of different ways that help them with their activities of daily living. A knife, even a 3 inch bladed knife, is a necessity for them, and because they had the knives out in public, that means death, to both. I would prefer that cops learn to detain their assailant's better just because of a knife. I could understand if they were waving guns around, and threatening to shoot but, that isn't the case. Why couldn't they just tazer them, or use other means, like COMMUNICATION maybe.

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bearwins1 said on September 6, 2010 at 8:11 AM

call to all public!!!!!!Arm yourself.. Ban guns and only the bad guys own them...Like the cops

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bearwins1 said on September 6, 2010 at 8:05 AM

too bad these bad cops were not one of the six that got shot in the past year. It's just sad when good cops get shot and the bad cops get away with murder...

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bobknows said on September 6, 2010 at 7:14 AM

Citizen gives insight to Cops on shootings, tasings: Don't shoot people! Don't Taser people!

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bobknows said on September 6, 2010 at 7:07 AM

We are taught that "law and order" requires a fair trial and a jury. Instead what is done more and more often is summary justice by blue shirt firing squad. Just form a line and kill the "suspect" on the street -- case closed. ... We the people are not just "bad guys" to be shot on sight by armed gun thugs in blue shirts. If they cannot or will not bring the bad guys to trial they should turn in their budgets so we can get someone who can.

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bobknows said on September 6, 2010 at 7:03 AM

Tasers are torture devices. They Taser someone when they want to inflict extreme pain to "teach him a lesson." Like the guy who got tasered 4 times for refusing medical treatment in his own home, it has nothing to do with being a threat to anyone. Its about pig power and torturing citizens who refuse to genuflect quickly enough. Torture and torture devices should never be allowed.

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cahall said on September 6, 2010 at 7:00 AM

Each person has a story. These are PEOPLe who are being killed, not animals. Adam, who was tazed to death in Gold Bar was an aquantance of my kids. He was not the best guy around, but he did NOT deserve to die. The police say he threatened them when he charged them. He had NO weapon, and he weighed 150lbs soaking wet, how was he a threat to two huge armed officers. It is a well known fact in Gold Bar that the police did not like him, so he deserves to die? I don't think so. It is funny that Adam has been going to court with these same officers charging them with unlawful tazing, and then they do it to him again till he died, ironic ...........

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cornfed74 said on September 6, 2010 at 6:22 AM

I have been confronted by law enforcement agents on several occasions, and never had an issue. In each instance, I had a legally carried fire arm on me and as long as you cooperate with the Officers request they WILL NOT shoot or taze you. If they request for you to set your weapon down or to sit on the curb and you dont do it YOU become a threat to them. Just ask anyone who says they were wrongfully treated by Law enforcement, they will deny wrong doing off the bat but if you keep them talking for a few minutes I bet 99% will admit to not cooperating in on way or another. In short, the Police do not use these tactics as first resort, if you provoke them they will handle the situation with appropriate measures.

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sumithryo said on September 5, 2010 at 9:37 PM

"The cops kill so many people " Give it a rest queenie. They could shoot five worthless s**ts in my neighborhood and not make a dent in what needs doing.

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sumithryo said on September 5, 2010 at 9:35 PM

"those who choose to leave comments that are just plain mindless garbage spewing" One man's junk is another man's treasure. It's so hard for the righteous to recognize their own manipulations....

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sumithryo said on September 5, 2010 at 9:33 PM

Simmer down, Thunderchicky - you need to ease up on the white lightning.

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luna1sierra said on September 5, 2010 at 8:44 PM

tasers don't kill people, the people using them do ....

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luna1sierra said on September 5, 2010 at 8:43 PM

Tasers disrupt the nervous system. If you have a heart problem and don't know it...could be fatal. Not all systems can take the same amount of disruption..tasers are actually much to dangerous for the use they get now. I am sorry that 6 police officer died last year, but that does not mean its ok for the police to kill 5 citizens in the last week. ( that kind of tit for tat is gang thinking you know...) most people do not go out the door thinking that the police could kill them that day.

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someotherguy said on September 5, 2010 at 7:33 PM

""The taser killed him"... I'd speculate that it was something else, like suffocation.".... Or a drug overdose? They guy was running up and down the street throwing a propane tank through a window, sounds kind of like he was on drugs, may also be a factor.

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radiolightbulb said on September 5, 2010 at 5:13 PM

By a slightly different token, the police are not paid enough to literally risk their lives. Military soldiers are under different laws.

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radiolightbulb said on September 5, 2010 at 5:02 PM

"The taser killed him"... I'd speculate that it was something else, like suffocation.

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auburngirl said on September 5, 2010 at 4:26 PM

Very emotional and critical subject for every citizen. I have learned from this blog and the people who choose to give comments that are thought provoking. I have also been a bit discusted with those who choose to leave comments that are just plain mindless garbage spewing and hateful (I think most know who I am talking about). I think we should all, who are concerned and have constructive ideas, send letters to our represenitives and to our local police departments. In our everyday life we should consider what we can do to make our communities safe. We should support our LEO and obey the laws that protect us. We should demand that we as citizens be given a full account of the investagations into these very tragic incidents. We should consider ourselves responsible for our actions or inactions. RE-ACTION without good information can cause some very bad outcomes.

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treeclimber said on September 5, 2010 at 4:26 PM

wyatt took care of bad guys the same way gunned them down,the daulton gang,bonney and clyde.machine gun kelly, billie the kid was shot by garret,the differnce now days is the modern day cops they just shoot any body they need to be taught who to shoot and who to just knock down,killing is part of being a cop but most arn't trained very well at it most are fat and out off shape and as a result they have no choice but to use there gun.

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cloudyday said on September 5, 2010 at 3:53 PM

Drunks, druggies and law breakers acting up and / or carrying weapons, it's hard to tell if they are just "harmless" or going to kill a citizen or police officer - you have to make the decision in seconds or you could be dead. Now people have days to contemplate what should have been, second guessing from unqualified people is meaningless. People want to stay safe but whine when police also want to stay safe and go home at night, and in one piece. Recently, several officers were murdered in cold blood while not even being involved in an incident. Officers have every right and reason to be cautious. Like they say, walk a mile in their shoes then let's see what you choose!

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whatsyurbeef said on September 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM

Thing are lookin up...

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jppatches said on September 5, 2010 at 3:41 PM

They need to learn to disarm the person instead of kill them!!!!

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dshermanator said on September 5, 2010 at 2:33 PM

Although Scott Creach was shot by a Spokane Sheriff's deputy more than a week ago in the Spokane Valley, that shooting should definitely have been mentioned here. This case, and the case of John T. Williams, should frighten citizens throughout Washington!

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comiccon2010 said on September 5, 2010 at 2:12 PM

on monday and tuesday police murdered 2 individuals in what could only be execution style killings. oipening fire on a citizen they had no right to stop anyway than them shooting someone in the back of the head and back multiple times when the vehicle wasnt going anywhere. to many cops are trigger happy

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empathy said on September 5, 2010 at 2:08 PM

Coolblue you can "justify" these senseless deaths all you want. The fact remains that people are dying by these "upstanding citizens" whose primary objective is to "serve and protect". Ultimately, the "officers' are alive to defend their actions, and the VICTIMS aren't. And if you know that some peoples physiology can't take being tazed, then why be so apt to use it? Some people have pacemakers and what not too. What happened to good old fashioned police work? It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident and steps were made to find an alternative to make sure to preserve human life, but it is becoming the norm. By the way.......What no conscience? What happened to a person right to a day in court? Also Alcoholism, and addiction is a disease! To be treated not killed for!

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thunderchicky said on September 5, 2010 at 1:55 PM

Hey and one more thing all you gun and knife owners, I know you all have one laying next to you on the coffee table just in case some tweeker makes a mistake that your house is the grow house they came to rip-off and kick your door in, well the cops make the same mistake all the time, so don't don't reach for your piece until you know who it is who just kicked your door in, cause if it's the cops your dead, if you have a 9mm or a 6 inch or a 3"? buck knife both are lethal weapons at any range, that's what we're supposed to swallow this week anyway???? Live long and prosper my friends, peace to all of you..J

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thunderchicky said on September 5, 2010 at 1:44 PM

There is a war going on right now, it's between heaven and hell. That's the big picture, what happens to mankind in the next few years is going to be epic. All peoples need to focus on what's important, family and friends and try to be understanding of others limitations. I'm sure the policemen did not mean to shoot the man just so he'd have good water cooler rhetoric to share with his cohorts, on the other hand they are given a psychological test to make sure they're pretty much robots and follow orders until there told to stand down. How can one be taught to kill for years in the military and then be asked to serve and protect when they get out??? That's a good question?, the two entities don't mix and yet ex-military is hired all the time to be cops, I hope for the officers soul's sake he didn't just execute this poor man/alcoholic/drug addict/wood carver/friend/native American/son, just for the thrill of taking a human life, go hunting deer instead.

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akrandy said on September 5, 2010 at 1:38 PM

They have a shot first ask questions later attitude.

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tomma206 said on September 5, 2010 at 1:26 PM

@TELMAN.Its not that simple unless you believe the police are better than civilians which they are not.However they tend to think they are more important than us because they carry weapons and can pump fear.I know this is america, but in countries such as norway the police do not carry weapons to intimidate and brutalize people.They do what they are there for and help people therefore nobody wants to act crazy when they come around.The cops kill so many people and wonder why they have lost some of there own recently.take a hint cops,youve been killing innocent civilians to get raises and promotions for years.Killing people is bad for business and just wrong altogether.I know there are good cops out there.Keep up the good work.

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telman said on September 5, 2010 at 1:05 PM

Pull a knife or gun on a cop and die. It is that simple. Today with all the crazy tweekers and such I don't blame the police. I would want to come home after my shift.

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doc98115 said on September 5, 2010 at 12:52 PM

John Williams was deaf in one ear. What happens to those who cannot hear at all? I am deaf in one ear partially deaf in the other, after years of shooting in Baghdad and elsewhere. From my own experiences, one in the leg would have stopped his movement-six in the chest is simply overdone. Training and screening for Sociopathic disorders may stop this issue.

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quasi44 said on September 5, 2010 at 12:50 PM

I've weighed in on a few of the various forums about this, and now that I have had that opportunity, I'm willing to wait for the investigations rater than try to drum up divisions in our communities, which we really don't need any more of. I'm more than happy to complete the discussions started that I've participated in-especially if any of our LEO's choose to help clarify things from their viewpoints. For today, I'd like to thank the WSP for the traffic crackdown; Most times these days when I get the chance to get up to the Seattle area, it includes my wife and kids on the drive. I am always forced to make the choice between the legal speed limit; the risking of my family by the creation of a driving hazard when everyone else is doing 85...or 'going with the flow', in the face of my knowledge that most of the drivers around me have little in the way of true awareness at that speed or the skills to truly be safe at those speeds in close proximity to all the people surrounding us.

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bobknows said on September 5, 2010 at 12:34 PM

Killer cops killing people to protect themselves is the opposite of their excuse for existence in our communities. They promise to be protecting the people, but they are protecting themselves by killing the people. That is not why they are allowed to exist. We do not need to pay taxes to hire a gang of gun thugs to kill us for their own protection. ... There is something VERY WRONG with those who say that killing the people to protect the gun thugs is "justified." We are not so dumb that we cannot see what they are doing. If they cannot or will not protect the people instead of killing the people then we do not want them in our communities. It should be plain to anyone that many good men would be "PROTECTED" and alive if we the people took their badges and run them out of town.

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trojan33 said on September 5, 2010 at 12:31 PM

@coolblue9- Yeah, its based on pre-exisiting condition like having a body regulated by electrical conductivity.

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revolutionist said on September 5, 2010 at 12:04 PM

Lol - coolblu is a cop.

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taxdollarsponge said on September 5, 2010 at 12:01 PM

Save a life,don't call a cop.

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silverton said on September 5, 2010 at 11:55 AM

When was the last time anyone heard of a officer using a billy club or mace to subdue someone? I can't remember either. Cops who have been causing death at young and are killing other young guys. Video game generation cops?

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unhappy said on September 5, 2010 at 11:54 AM

why did the interview WSP... their not real cops, they write speeding tickets.....we should just get rid of them and get speeding camera's if it's to dangerous for them.. it would save the budget too.

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empathy said on September 5, 2010 at 11:52 AM

I have to agree with revolutionist, I know that these policemen are trained quite well in there jobs. So why get lazy and just shoot someone.....don't want to do your job right , lazy, or just don't want to get you uniform dirty? I know contrary to your believe system ....you are not God! You don't have the right to take a life anymore than the next human being does. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? You are in better physical condition than the average citizen, is that just for looks and ego? It was tragic what has happened to other officers,yes, but you have signed on for that job, most of your job description is dangerous. You know that when you signed on. So in the coffee shop, you are safe? Even when the "perp" has a gun. Maybe you all should have more extensive training with determining good guy from the bad. They aren't threatening your life with a whittling knife and there back turned to you. May God have more mercy on you than you have for others!

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coolblue9 said on September 5, 2010 at 11:42 AM

Officer are trained to disarm knife weilding folks using hand to hand techniques....WRONG WRONG WRONG!! They are trained to defend themselves from these ATTACKS when they have already been attacked and it is close quarters combat. They are not trained to go after knife weilding subjects with their bare hands to disarm them. It is a good idea to know something about law enforcement tactics before making statements like that. People do not die from the Taser. They die from pre-existing conditions related to alcohol and drug use. This use to happen pre-taser. Someone would fight with police and fight hard. When finally taken into custody they would stop breathing or their heart would stop just as the taser related deaths. It is not the Taser it is the persons physiology. Do some research and enlighten yourself to the real facts.

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aquaria67 said on September 5, 2010 at 11:30 AM

Is there a "low" and "high" setting for tasers? Seems obvious to me that they are more powerful than what's needed when they make people stop breathing, permanently. Regarding feeling like they did the right thing in the situation, I wonder how much all the recent police officer killings have to do with possible overreactions? Are all of the officers still able to get help with their reactions to those killings, for free and without it going on their record that they sought psychological help? Knowing a little about PTSD, how likely is it that they are overreacting through PTSD rather than falling back on training or emotion in that split second?

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denkoko said on September 5, 2010 at 11:27 AM

Let the law take it`s course. If you do not like what the law is, do not blame the cop. Prosecute him if he did an illegal act. Leave him alone if he did not. OH. And by the way, if you do not like the out come, CHANGE the law.

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revolutionist said on September 5, 2010 at 11:05 AM

"in a tense situation, O'Connell expects training will take precedence over any other emotions. Mar agreed." Baloney - federal way guy with a knife for instance. Officers are trained to disarm knife weilding folks using a very specific set of hand to hand combat techniques. Which do not involve shooting the perpetrator. Baloney - seattle native american for instance. He had a short, legal, whittling knife. He was shot twice in the back as he was walking away and once in the side as he fell. Baloney - sultan guy who was not armed. He weighed about 130 lbs according to a friend who knew him. Tased to death. Stop defending murder by law enforcement officials. Test officers to see how much of their training they retain. Try officers as criminals when they perform criminal acts, don't pay them to sit at home while you investigate.

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