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Gun owners claim deputy violated their rights

by TRICIA MANNING-SMITH / KING 5 News

KING5.com

Posted on October 2, 2010 at 6:03 PM

Updated Saturday, Oct 2 at 6:42 PM

SPANAWAY , Wash. - A group of gun owners claims local deputies violated their civil rights. They openly displayed a lot of firepower this morning at the Spanaway Starbucks to make a point.

"I have a 'Combat Commander.'  Its a .45," said Lynn (who did not want to give her last name), who openly wears her firearm on her hip.

Eric Sandoval has a holstered Springfield Armory XD.40.  The former military man says he grew up around guns.

Lynn and Eric were at the Starbucks on Saturday with about 35 others openly wearing guns. They were all there in support of Tom Brewster, who openly wears a Glock 19.   

"I carry (a gun) in the open because I have nothing to hide," said Brewster.

Brewster walked into a Spanaway Starbucks, his gun fully visible, he says, earlier this week.  A Pierce County Deputy approached.  Brewster recorded his conversation with the deputy:

Officer: Look guy, just show some ID and that just proves who you are.

Brewster: Open carry is legal in Washington.

Officer: We don't know if you're a felon. We don't know if you're a felon.

Brewster: I'm not a felon ... Unless you have reasonable articulable suspicion to detain me, you don't need to request ID.

In the end, Brewster showed his ID.  Deputies did not detain him.

But as a result of that encounter, a group of about 35 "open carry" gun advocates --  those who are legally licensed to carry their guns in full view-- gathered to support Brewster and to assert their rights.  They feel the deputy went too far.

"I understand why they were concerned, but that does not give them the right to violate another citizen's civil rights," said Lynn.

However, one can't escape the fact that officers approached Brewster at a Spanaway coffee shop, which is located mere miles away from another coffee shop:  Forza coffee in Parkland, where four police officers were killed less than a year ago.  Many people in this community have very strong feelings about guns.

"I don't dispute the legality of it, its just that my comfort level would not be there," said Forza customer Marilee Titus.

Laura Stewart, another Forza customer said, "I don't have a problem with someone carrying a gun in a public place, but if it was me and I saw someone with a weapon, I might alert the officer there, just  out of concern for public safety."

Pierce County Sheriff's Department spokesman Ed Troyer responded to this incident by saying, "Guns make people nervous and when people have them, we're going to follow up and ask questions. ...We understand the law, we understand their rights, but if they're carrying guns around, there's a strong possibility that somebody is going to come talk to them."

Meanwhile, Starbucks has said it does not want to be put in the middle of a larger gun-control debate.

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Comments: Displaying 1 - 15 of 182

smithrock said on November 1, 2010 at 2:01 PM

The police should not have their rights bound by the Washington Supreme Court rulings to not being able to request the showing of ID and a concealed weapons permit. People are generally nervous when they see someone enter a public restaurant with a gun when robberies are on the rise.

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yessir said on October 5, 2010 at 2:13 PM

Washingtonapple... I knew you'd come round ; )

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washingtonapple said on October 4, 2010 at 11:36 PM

@yessir: I hate to say it, even though 99% of the stuff you say I disagree with completely, you actually have a good point this time.

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yessir said on October 4, 2010 at 8:20 PM

it's interesting that the same rednecks that decry the police's decision to talk to this man with the visible firearm in a public place also call for open profiling of latinos as possible "illegal immigrants" and "Arabic looking individuals who might be foreign terrorists. Ironic that in one breath they'll profess the bill of rights, but quickly withdraw it from someone who's skin happens to be a different shade.

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ytzhaak said on October 4, 2010 at 7:58 PM

In 1700s, it was normal for a family to own weapons. That was not a problem maybe because kids had stricter disciplines than they do today. But the biggest difference from 1700s is that the functions of local communities have been crippled today. Individuals became isolated from each other. I believe America is still better than other developed countries but we still massively lost the power of community. Unarmed lonely crowd sometimes just stand still even when someone is brutally beaten up to death at a bus stop, even without calling emergency. Is American Mind already closed, or what? Maybe we cannot so simply shift to complete liberalization of weapons without restoring the community power, disciplines, and the love toward neighbors.

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batousaii said on October 4, 2010 at 7:08 PM

(continued from last) .... i mean, it's 2010 for gods sake, we should be happy that the government is here to tell us how to live.... Right guys?

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batousaii said on October 4, 2010 at 7:07 PM

Darn that Pesky "Bill of Rights" -We should repeal it right guys? Then the police can "talk to you" and provide you with "Helpful instructions" any time they please. They could even pay a "Courtesy Checks" to inspect inside your home and make sure your all safe and sound. Also, we should ensure that Local, state, and federal legislation and laws can be passed easily and without the messy interference of that poorly written "Constitution".. I mean seriously, who needs all that! - The police and lawmakers are your friends and should be embraced with blind trust and provided un-infringed access to every aspect of our daily lives. The law is exactly what they say it is, when they say it is, and how they say it is, and you should be happy to follow their guidance at every turn without question or remorse. To think that you would need some sort of "guarantee" to ensure your silly little liberties is so 1700's, i mean, it's 2010 for gods sake, we should be happy that the government .....

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yessir said on October 4, 2010 at 5:52 PM

our right... to smoke any dang place we want... no matter who it screws up... our right... to drive without a seatbelt and to have others in our car without seatbelts including children... our right... to treat our dog as cruel as we want, because that dog is our "property"... our right... to "discipline" our children any dang way we want without someone saying it's child abuse... our right... to pack a gun any dang place we want, no matter how it might intimidate people (not because they necessarily assume we are a bad guy, but perhaps because they think we are some dork with a chip on his shoulder who'll likely end up accidentally shooting anyone, except the person we are aiming at. Reconsider what's truly being implied when some of these folks talk about their "rights"

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selfdefense said on October 4, 2010 at 5:45 PM

From the Washington State Constitution. If you don't know your rights, how can you assert them? If you don't care about your rights....then get out your wallet and give the police your ID and the state your money....(play lottery...its for the kids). SECTION 7 of the WA. State Constitution: INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law. This means you cannot be detained without cause (committing a crime). If you're happy to let PCS Ed Troyer, compare you, a law abiding citizen to the convicted thug that murdered those officers in Parkland, as a rationalization to why they can abbrogate your civil rights, we have to agree to disagree.....!

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theperfectweapon said on October 4, 2010 at 2:41 PM

Gosh king5 sucks!

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theperfectweapon said on October 4, 2010 at 2:39 PM

Okay, let's suppose these guys are right. By displaying guns, they let the criminals know exactly who they're messing with. That can be a good thing! But that can be a bad thing also! Think about that!

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captjp said on October 4, 2010 at 10:54 AM

I can see where this is all going, drug dealers and other low life's will now carry guns out in the open knowing the police can't do anything about it, where as if caught having it concealed would be jail time. How many of us have the trainning that it takes to use our weapons in a safe and responsible way? Right or wrong do you have any idea of the can of worms you will open up if for any reason you even draw much less use it? Do you not respect how you make people feel around you not knowing who you are or what state of mind your in? Do I carry? I never leave home without it but out of respect for others I carry ID and keep it concealed, have some trainning just enough to know that your gun can be just as deadly to you as well as others. Yes we can legally carry guns in the open but along with our freedom and rights comes responsibly and respect or we all will lose it. Have a nice day.

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freedomfrank said on October 4, 2010 at 10:40 AM

Beachperson will be first in line for a ID implant,,, got no problems with the government knowing everything about you right? After all,,,, its for everyone's safety!!! Lets give up all our rights so everyone can live in a nice safe society,,, you people that are so quick to give up your rights make me sick. Millions have died for these rights and you throw them away like yesterdays trash. Sad and shameful. How many of you know about the government funded motorcycle only checkpoints that are on the way? Hmmmmmm??? tax money going to roadside check points in the name of "safety" look out America,,, don't wait till they stomp on a right you enjoy before taking a stand.

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ytzhaak said on October 4, 2010 at 10:13 AM

I don't see why some people use pictures of conflict like "Gun-carrying citizens vs Police" or "Weapons vs State". Carrying weapons and keeping order do not contradict to each other. Moreover, the guns are much safer to handle than other types of weapons that we are allowed to own in sloppy and untidy ways. A sort of pit bulls was carefully created by Englanders as weapon for warfare. Pit bulls stand up and kill if they will. But guns don't have will. I am NOT against you owning whatever weapons, pit bulls, grizzlies or Howitzer in your back yard if you strictly train yourself as a good citizen to handle those weapons and control them properly. But I recommend just guns for carrying around for all good citizens.

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ytzhaak said on October 4, 2010 at 9:10 AM

Neither of community and law-enforcers are used to the new situation, but I believe the presence of weapons in the hands of good citizens should be more familiar and popular in regard to a deterrent to crimes. Presence of weapons and use of them are totally different. I won't take M16s even if a family restaurant is known to be filled with gun-carrying citizens. Because the weapons are just present but not in use. If you kill, you will be killed. So, everything is cool. You should be okay with that. Citizens have been facing a disproportionate power game with armed outlaws. Law-enforcers have been chronically overloaded to protect unarmed citizens. From now on, we will be losing law-enforcers from our community due to the foolish budget cuts by some foolish local governments.

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blankingout said on October 4, 2010 at 9:02 AM

I got an idea suited for 1beachperson & captjp... The US should tattoo our social security number to our necks(with a microchip), so they know FOR SURE who we are.. then I am sure they would agree we should wear color coded arm bands supplied by the government that range in color with the brighter ones meaning your "more at risk"... Man, I cannot wait for the Tea-party to take over so I can live in 1beachperson and captjp world..

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washingtonapple said on October 4, 2010 at 8:51 AM

Police are trained to find the means of making an arrest or writing a citation. That is their primary purpose. If the police question you, you can be sure that their primary goal is to see if they uncover or expose some criminal intent or act. There are plenty of people who still think they are dealing with Andy and Barney but I have some sad news for you, this ain't Mayberry. Questioning you and keeping you from freely walking away equates to detaining you. How is it that people can possibly consider being detained by the police without cause an acceptable situation? This is exactly how the native american carver got shot last month, he was being questioned by police without cause while doing something perfectly legal, and ended up dead. Think about that while you are supporting illegal questioning.

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captjp said on October 4, 2010 at 8:41 AM

1 beachperson- Well said.

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1beachperson said on October 4, 2010 at 8:22 AM

I have no problem showing my ID. And, what's with these little boys playing cowboy or cops feeling the need to carry a gun everywhere? Bunch of losers. I'd want a cop to ask someone to show their ID just to make sure they are legit. The only point they're making is what idiots they are!

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slappywag said on October 4, 2010 at 8:02 AM

rullyone, your scenario for calmly giving up the ID has the same result as having it demanded of you. This is still a violation of your rights if ID'ing you was the whole intention of the officer. Giving up your rights is plain stupidity.

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slappywag said on October 4, 2010 at 7:58 AM

stryker, you are treading on thin ice with your tolerance of the police railroading your rights. Where do we decide to make the cutoff? When do we say enough is enough? When do we say "Hey, buddy, you don't have a right to trample on my rights no matter who you are!" I am reasonably certain this was the whole point of the demonstration. When we give penultimate decisive power to a group (the Supreme Court) who in turn says that we have a right to privacy and that asking for ID in this kind of situation is NOT OK, then we SHOULD be (if you will forgive the pun) up in arms about it when another group we give power to tramples said rights. So, you see, it *IS* a big deal. If you are willing to give up a right, you are a fool.

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nen78059 said on October 4, 2010 at 7:47 AM

How hard is it to show your ID. Unless you're a jerk with a point to prove. Big deal they asked for proof of identification. Yes you have the right to carry and it's an important right to have. But come on showing your ID would take less than it did to argue with the cop in the first place.

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ramigo said on October 4, 2010 at 7:47 AM

I don't get THESE gun owners. What's up with open carry? I have gun on me most of the time but I keep it concealed and never had to show my ID and CPL to any cop. They just don't bother asking because they don't see it. And, I don't freak out people around me either with caliber 40 gun. I don't get when they walk into SB with open gun to make a point. What point!? Just chill out or something. Go to a shooting range maybe.

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stryker said on October 4, 2010 at 7:24 AM

I keep mine concealed. I would not have had any problem with 35 armed people there. It when its just 1 or 2 and they look shady.... The cops and the gun owners all need to relax. He checked your ID, so what. I'll show my ID and permit, no problem. It not worth the hassle to make a big scene. I've shown my ID for other reasons, no big deal. If everyone shows ID then we can cull the buggers from the crowd.

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rullyone said on October 4, 2010 at 6:44 AM

This is a situation where in the right of the individual had no call to challenge. If anything, the officer should have had a friendly conversation with the man. They may very well have had a good conversation about places to practice shooting and lead to a good feeling of knowing there are other citizens who can be at the ready to help. IF the cop had acted, like a true Constable On Patrol, he could have maintained rapport with the community as a whole and not a cause of tension. It is quite likely the man would have gladly shown his registration with little cause under that process. After all Cop’s do like to have a good conversation over a cup of coffee,,,don’t they?

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tootoo said on October 4, 2010 at 6:33 AM

These people were the ones picked on in school growing up. They are trying to compensate, because they have no social skills and are unable to stand up for themselves in modern society. This way, if anyone is mean to them, they can feel good about themselves by threatening to kill the person being mean. Total losers.

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treeclimber said on October 4, 2010 at 5:37 AM

its legal for gunslingers to wear there guns to town but just like in the old west the cities need to pass laws that make the gunslingers check there guns when entering town and thats whats going to happen . do to idiots like these gunslinger's ,the state passed the blue laws ,and it looks like we need to bring them back. what these gunslingers are forceing the public to do is bring there families and there m16s to dinner for protection.

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ytzhaak said on October 4, 2010 at 1:19 AM

In the economic depression, some local governments foolishly cut budget for law-enforcement instead of eliminating something else. The good old pressure from the presence of police officers is now fading away. Citizens must demonstrate such pressure against criminals in place of the fading law-enforcement. These gun-carrying citizens are mitigating the law-enforcement's overloaded work.

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ytzhaak said on October 4, 2010 at 1:17 AM

Presence of weapons is an important point in regard to discouraging criminals' desire. Same can be said on the law-enforcement. All we need is the good old presence of law-enforcement. We are paying tax to keep the 'presence' of police officers in our community, but not necessarily for the real 'use' of the power.

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ytzhaak said on October 4, 2010 at 1:10 AM

Guns make criminals nervous. If you were a criminal seeing a bunch of good citizens with guns at Forza, you would absolutely behave yourself, right? Even if you are a dumb criminal, you would instantly get shot on the spot and forever behave yourself, right? If people carry the guns around, it is well anyway.

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bookman said on October 3, 2010 at 11:35 PM

I would like to make to points here. 1. You don't have to have a license to carry openly. That's only for concealed carry. The reason most of us have a license is that one is necessary to carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle. 2. Ms. Titus and Ms. Stewart - Your comfort is YOUR business. My safety and that of my family and friends who are with me is my own.

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kenpomaster said on October 3, 2010 at 11:35 PM

What a group of dorks, who're extremely stupid. I'll tell these idiots something from a martial artist's point of view. A weapon works best when it's concealed! Man, they better draw their guns as quickly as Clint Eastwood in the spaghetti western movies.

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captjp said on October 3, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Just looked the word RESPONSIBLY in the dictionary and didn't see Brewsters name there but I did find it under the word STUPID.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 10:31 PM

People like landesign1999 just shouldn't post here - they aren't heard. That person should learn a lesson and just stay away. Everyone here is all hyped up and ready to charge at everyone in variance to their own opinion. That's OK. Be nasty. There is a better way. It won't be found here, in most of these postings.

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dakotanative said on October 3, 2010 at 10:06 PM

No one is arguing that it is legal. It has to be legal, or hunting would be next to impossible. If I am a cop, I am going to be paranoid every time I see someone with a gun. With good reason. When I was 18, I thought it was cool to have the shotgun displayed in the back window of my truck. When I grew up, I realized how stupid I looked. People are seeing kids killed by accidental discharge of guns every day. Then they see the possibility of a psycho walking by and grabbing your gun. Of course there is paranoid people out there.

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washingtonapple said on October 3, 2010 at 10:02 PM

@dakotanative: Thats the second time I saw someone post about him coming prepared to record the conversation. That may have seemed odd 20 years ago, but today everyone carries an audio recorder. Its called a cell phone. landdesign1999 "A more enlightened attitude about the character of our social interactions is all that may ultimately save us" Seriously? SERIOUSLY??? ease up Ghandi, come back to the real world.

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 10:01 PM

You have to be paranoid to want protect yourself and/or your property? Well, dang, here I thought it was just common sense to have that instinct.

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yessir said on October 3, 2010 at 9:43 PM

just so I understand.... it's the people who don't carry guns that are paranoid?

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 9:28 PM

dakotanative said: "Packing a weopon in clear view does nothing but cause fear." In whom, exactly? Paranoid people who can't deal with the fact that open-carrying a gun is 100% legal in Washington?

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trolg said on October 3, 2010 at 8:54 PM

Just remember what the cops say about calling 911, "When seconds count we are only minutes away". Bet Tuba Man wishes he had a Glock in his waistband. Only problem with open carry is that it really only protects the person carrying, canceled carry protects everyone. Larry

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dakotanative said on October 3, 2010 at 8:50 PM

The fact that Brewster came prepared to record the cop just shows that he is an idiot looking for trouble, not casually enjoying his rights. Does not make gun owners look very intelligent.

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greatwhitellama said on October 3, 2010 at 8:46 PM

@landesign1999 - You just inadvertently posted what may be one of the most unmentioned pro's to gun ownership; you, the week, the frail, the single person up against many, a gun will allow you to be on level playing field as a 20 or 30 something male with criminal intent. But don't take my word for it, go to corneredcat dot com and peruse the sight. I believe it may help you to understand. BTW, I'm assuming you're a woman.

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dakotanative said on October 3, 2010 at 8:46 PM

Packing a weopon in clear view does nothing but cause fear. It is not going to help you protect yourself. Infact it makes you a target. If I am a felon bent on robbing the place, the unarmed cashier isn't going to be my first target. If you have a concealed weopon, you won't get a second look. The Lakewood cops showed that even 4 very well trained shooter are no threat to an armed person. Now, if the guy at the counter had a concealed weopon, I believe we would have atleast 2 more officers walking the streets. The only time that open carry is reasonable is while hunting or in uniform. There are so many problems with open carry in public, that I will never do it, but atleast the target will be on someone else.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 8:35 PM

If something got all 35 of those armed civilians shooting off their guns to "settle" a problem - and why wouldn't all 35 of them react, since they have no plan - I don't think all those bullets would be going in directions that would be good for all the people sitting drinking their coffee. I would not feel any safer there than on a battlefield or in an old west town during a shootout. @ washingtonapple - I'm not going to go where your comment came from. Just hope you may one day learn what the law really is and who it is intended to help - which is ALL of us. Law is about ensuring due process for all - those who tote guns and feel they are strong and can take care of themselves just fine, thank you, and those who choose not to tote guns, and look to others to help them not be taken advantage of. A more enlightened attitude about the character of our social interactions is all that may ultimately save us - from all the gun toting he-men out there who can fend for themselves.

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seattlebusinessm said on October 3, 2010 at 8:24 PM

yogibear - you cease to amaze me at the lengths you will go to. Your a complete idiot and yet you post again and again on this site. Be happy people can protect themselves from freaks like yourself.

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seattlebusinessm said on October 3, 2010 at 8:23 PM

1973bobm - trust me you come into my house and attempt to hurt me and you will find out that I am just fine with the idea of using my gun. Not a threat but to answer your stupid question "a//holes who are on this bandwagon have the guts to use the gun?" this one certainly does. Go play in your sandbox and share your toys you moron.

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trolg said on October 3, 2010 at 7:48 PM

TRICIA MANNING-SMITH needs to read the Washington state law before she reports on it. No one in Washington State is "legally licensed to carry their guns in full view", anyone over 21 and legal to own the gun can do it. Just not as common here as it is in other places, but it is perfectly legal and the cop had no reason to question him. My guess is that about the safest place in the country at the time was that Starbucks with 35 armed civilians in it. Larry

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 7:29 PM

yogibear -- I'll take your comment calling me "rude" as the following: "Yes, slappywag, I, yogibear, realize that you are absolutely correct, and that I am a complete idiot. I submit to you and I submit to the truth. I am a dullard for ever doubting the truth." You have a real nice day now, moron.

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washingtonapple said on October 3, 2010 at 7:27 PM

@landesign1999: Sorry you feel that way, but its the truth. Maybe you are just having trouble with that fact. The law is not written to protect you from personal anxiety you may experience from somebody legally carrying a firearm in a public place. The law provides for men and women to defend themselves against crime and violence. Maybe I am wrong but that seems more important than your comfort level strangely enough.

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1973bobm said on October 3, 2010 at 6:44 PM

yessir I agree totaly with you! It is a right to openly carry a gun but how many of you a//holes who are on this bandwagon have the guts to use the gun? when you pull your gun you have used up all other options. now its time to kill or be killed, or if you wind up in court you must defend your decision and understand that a jury of your peers may not agree with you so you may spend the rest of your life in prison. talk is cheep but look deep inside yourself(no not just what you want others to think about what a badass you are) but are you ready to kill another person and be put in front of a jury so they(not you can deceide) the fate of the rest of your life. I hate bad guys as much as anybody could, the only difference is that I have been there and thank god I lived thru it.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 6:30 PM

@washingtonapple - "...fortunately the law does not provide for for the fearful..." It's difficult to imagine a more ignorant, callas, deliberately spiteful statement than this.

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washingtonapple said on October 3, 2010 at 6:11 PM

I am just happy that for now the law supports those who wish to protect themselves by being armed. And all the anti-gun hypothesis and conjecture here won't change that. There will always be that segment of the population that are terrified of guns and people who own guns, but fortunately the law does not provide for for the fearful, it provides for the right of the people to defend themselves. Open carry may not be the best way to carry on a regular basis, but doing it occasionally does show the real criminals that we are not all unarmed sheep that depend solely on the police for our protection. And apparently a lot of people could use a reminder that carrying a weapon does not make you a bad guy as is sadly apparent from peoples reactions to this incident.

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im911 said on October 3, 2010 at 5:53 PM

big gay al, you're exactly right. a felon wouldn't carry a gun in the open. criminals are always trying to hide.

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im911 said on October 3, 2010 at 5:51 PM

treeclimber, you made my point. the police need a violation to pull someone over, the license plate covered, the cracked windshield or the running of the plate and the warrant attached. either way they have to have something articulable that they are investigating. running a plate is nonintrusive. stopping someone and limiting their movement until they prove they are innocent is a violation of the constitution. the gunslinger wasn't commiting a crime. if the deputy had reason to believe the person was a felon then he would have the right to demand identification. he was just fishing for a problem. that's what my comparison is, give the police the ability to stop people and demand papers.

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big_gay_al said on October 3, 2010 at 5:02 PM

Show me a felon openly carrying a firearm, and I'll show you a person who's obviously suffered brain damage. Felons DO NOT open carry their weapons. They don't want you to know they're armed. Think about that, next time you see someone open carrying.

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bazwest said on October 3, 2010 at 4:33 PM

I don't know that testing the public's sense of security, as the folks in the story are doing, will serve to solidify the right to carry firearms openly. What may very well happen instead is forces could be unleashed which might eventually cause this right to be lost.

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treeclimber said on October 3, 2010 at 4:25 PM

( IM911 ) COMPARING A GUN SLINGER WEARING A SIX GUN TO DINNER ,AND SOMEBODY DRIVING A CAR IS PRETTY STUPID, BESIDES TRAFFIC COP'S ARE PULLING PEOPLE OVER ALL THE TIME TO SEE IF THERE IS A WARNT OUT FOR THEM, THE BONNEY LAKE COPS HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO CHECK CARS AT THE BLT TAVERN AND CALL IN THE LICENSE PLATE NUMBER TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY WARRANT'S OUT FOR THE OWNER,THEN PULL THEM OVER WHEN THEY LEAVE THE TAVERN,IF THE CAR FITS THE DICRIPTION OF A STOLEN CAR,TRAILER BALL COVERING A NUMBER,CRACK IN THE WINDSHIELD,OR IF THE GUNSLINGER ((LOOKS LIKE)) A FELLON WITH A WARRANT FROM TEXAS THATS ALL THEY NEED.

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im911 said on October 3, 2010 at 4:20 PM

more people are killed with things not designed to kill. better not play baseball, someone might take your bat away and hit you with it. better not have knives in the house. knives are the perfered weapon of most criminals because they are not illegal to carry when they are convicted of a felony. arguing that your gun will be taken from you and then used against you is an antigun propaganda. if you don't choose some way of defending yourself, you better just lay down and let evil run over you. i'll take the report after the fact.

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im911 said on October 3, 2010 at 3:28 PM

So people, if you think the police should question somebody who is not doing anything illegal, just to make sure and give someone a false sense of security; why don't we let the police pull over anyone they want to JUST TO SEE if they have a license and insurance. I'm sure there is a hundred times more people that don't know how to operate their vehicles properly. They drive suspended, without ever getting a license, without getting insurance to protect the person they eventually will crash into. Yet we trust that they have the proper training to operate that 3000-7000 pound rolling instrument of death. Unleash the police. Protect the masses.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 3:27 PM

Many people can't even responsibly get behind the wheel of a car without (unintentially) turning it into a lethal weapon either because they drink and drive, or phone, or text, or apply make-up, etc. Openly carrying a weapon while drinking, or drunk - which WILL happen - will impair the gun toter's judgement - not to mention that someone open carrying will probably be distracted by phone calls and who knows what else allowing someone to perhaps catch them unaware and force away their gun and use it then, or later. Having more guns on the street doesn't seem wise, no matter how they are carried. Given how many different ways people unintentially kill others with what may seem inocuous things in themselves, imagine how easily innocent people can be unintentially killed with something actually designed to kill. Some of the heated exchanges, below, make me wonder just how safe everyone will really be with folks like those buying and carrying guns just because they can....

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trojan33 said on October 3, 2010 at 3:18 PM

yogibear- I'm not sure what you are missing. People in this state of Washington have the right to carry openly without a permit.

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trojan33 said on October 3, 2010 at 3:16 PM

Can the cops ask for proof of citizenship if the person has an foreign accent or just looks like they might be a foreigner?

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yogibear said on October 3, 2010 at 3:14 PM

washingtonapple --the illeagal gun carriers that kill people. NO!

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greatwhitellama said on October 3, 2010 at 3:10 PM

To those of you who are honestly curious as to the 'why's' and 'how's' of Open Carry, please feel free to visit opencarry dot org and browse the Washington forums. There are many knowledgeable and respectful people that frequent the forums and they are more than happy to answer any and all questions you may have :)

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washingtonapple said on October 3, 2010 at 3:03 PM

But its not rude to stereotype unlicensed gun carriers as crazy? interesting double standard on rudeness.

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yogibear said on October 3, 2010 at 2:51 PM

slappywag--you are rude.

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 2:31 PM

yogibear -- how many times does this need to be stated? There is NO REQUIREMENT for a permit to own a gun in Washington, and there is NO PERMIT REQUIREMENT for OPEN CARRY. The only time a permit is required is when you carry concealed. Period. Please, get an education.

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yogibear said on October 3, 2010 at 2:22 PM

As I said before, people have the right to carry again as long as they have a permit. Thanks too crazy unlicensed gun carriers, the police should ask, I don't want anyone shot because the police don't have the right to ask. Let them help keep uis safe.

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momuddog said on October 3, 2010 at 1:57 PM

Profiling, certainly but illegal, I doubt it. Open carry is a right in Washington and I understand why police may be a little nervous lately. In reality you may be in the presence of concealed carry firearms at any time. I went to an Open Carry Bar-B-Q a few weeks ago and I was in more danger driving over there in traffic than with responsible firearms owners. I would like to know how the police identify suspected felons by observation but that is nothing more than curiosity. It wouldn’t bother me if a policeman wanted to see some identification from me doing open carry in public as long as it did not cross over the line into harassment.

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whatsyurbeef said on October 3, 2010 at 1:21 PM

When you look for trouble you are likely to find it...

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 1:21 PM

cyrixlord - what is your point? What YOU see as rude, I see as someone exercising their rights. Running around in circles, screaming how you think it is rude only shows how thin-skinned you are. You, and you alone, have the ability to choose HOW you respond to any given situation. If you make a big deal about something, that's entirely on you.

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 1:14 PM

yogibear - please provide proof that police are required to protect you. Go ahead, I will wait. You are in for a rude awakening.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 1:06 PM

No arguing that people have the right to open carry. But how wise is that right? Once you have that gun with you how may you legally use it without risk of penalty, or worse, accidently injuring or killing an innocent person? People can't even defend themselves in their own homes with weapons without being arrested. Do open carry gun rights people have proper training to handle any situation that may come up in which they perceive a gun will provide the solution? Even police find it difficult to be fully prepared, or to act in what, on hind sight, seemed the most appropriate way. Do these gun-totting open carry defend-all-your-rights people really stop to think about a possible scenerio in which they may think it appropriate to draw and fire their weapon at another human being and all the split-second decisions they'd have to make and the terrible consequences of making a mistake - then living with themselves? It was once thought to be glorious to go to war. We learned it isn't.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 12:28 PM

Apparently a lot of people carry concealed weapons - thinking that is wiser or more tactfully advantageous. Now that all the hold-up artists know that they may just spray everyone with bullets to be on the safe side before continuing with their hold-up. Oh, and I'm sure that up to the point that the robber drew his weapon and pulled the trigger they were fully within their rights, too. The law does need to be changed. Instead of becoming an armed society where arguments may be settled with bullets, or worse, just outlaw the guns in public and if someone uses a gun to harm people then either put them away for life or execute them. Just how can anyone, police included, know the intention or mind set of someone carrying a weapon, concealed or open? Given the still unusual circumstance of seeing people in public wearing weapons who in their right mind wouldn't be just a little nervous, or curious to know what is on the mind of the carrier.

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yessir said on October 3, 2010 at 12:24 PM

repetivity.... perhaps while you are at it you explain to me how you were only a "fireman" (remember... you prefer the "old" sexist term) for what was it... 3 or 5 years? I'm curious why you washed out pal.

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yessir said on October 3, 2010 at 12:15 PM

repetivity... that's interesting... can you cite examples of me calling names please? I'll need them referenced please. Get to work partner.

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washingtonapple said on October 3, 2010 at 12:08 PM

I only carry concealed, never openly because in an emergency situation where I might need my gun I would rather the threat be unaware that I am armed. If I am in a convenience store and some guy comes in to rob it, sees me packing my 40 openly, he may simply prefer to eliminate me first before continuing on with the robbery. So I consider open carry to be a tactical disadvantage. Making me a much easier target than concealed carry. However it is still perfectly legal to open carry in this state, and I don't think being questioned by an officer every time you want to exercise that right is reasonable either. That equates to simple harassment to dissuade you from exercising your rights. Just because the police don't like seeing anyone with guns other than themselves does not mean they can harass people who do. The police are supposed to act within the limits of the law. If they don't like that then change the law, don't bend it to suit their opinion.

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seattlebusinessm said on October 3, 2010 at 12:03 PM

yogibear - You think if you call 911 and someone is breaking into your house they will just wait for the cops to show up? No you moron they may just take what they want, including your life, so don't count on the police to be everywhere all the time. Think about it, they cannot be everywhere all the time, and if someone is willing to come into your home and they think your home they are willing to harm you. Protecting yourself is vital in times like these when law enforcement is being cut, etc. In a nut shell always comply with an officers request if it is lawful, but do not slam people for protecting life at home, or if they are out and either open carry or have a permit to carry concealed. Your a jerk man, you always have some stupid comment, and I am sure I am not the only one that is sick of hearing you go on and on. Moron.

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denkoko said on October 3, 2010 at 11:51 AM

yogibear...It is not the job of police officers to keep each individual safe. THAT would be impossible. WE are, all of us, responsible for our own safety. That said, we are also individually responsible for every bullet that we choose to send out of our guns. So. own guns but also it is a huge responsibilitie.

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cyrixlord said on October 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM

You already have your second amendment right, but you also have to comply with the STATE laws as well. Responsible gun owners comply with all of the laws, state and federal. Frankly, nobody wants to see you waving your junk in everyone's face, no matter how big it is. It's just RUDE.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM

By the way, is this open carry just a man thing, or do women do it too? How old do kids have to be to open carry? 16? 18? What qualifications does someone have to have to open carry? Some sort of permit? How do you get the permit? Do you have to show proficiency or accuracy to get a permit? Since the bullits that come out of guns go fast and can tear a human body apart do people who open carry have to show they are responsible, level-headed human beings capable of taking on this additional risk to human life? If everyone who felt they need to exercise their rights open carried would they all feel safer, or more immediately threatened? Since so many others would also have guns would these open carry rights people then have to take it up another notch and look for something more deadly to carry - not for safety but to make sure they still have the right to do so? Where does it stop? The skinny guy at the beginning of the video carrying that big gun looks just ridiculous.

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ronulus said on October 3, 2010 at 11:32 AM

Why not go open carry in Afghanistan or Somalia rather than Starbucks. My guess is most of these gun toting confrontationalists were pantsed in school and still compensating to a large extent.

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nocando said on October 3, 2010 at 11:11 AM

When you pull into Dodge city limits you got to put your guns away.Makes Marshall Earp nervous

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blackhand said on October 3, 2010 at 11:05 AM

what a bunch of redneck hicks

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 10:52 AM

Why was Brewster carrying a recorder? How many people do this just to record conversations? Why did he want to record a conversation? Did he tell the officer he was recording the conversation? According to Brewster there was no articulable reason for the officer to ask for his ID. Um.... look at the previous conversation - the part reported - who can tell what the tone or words of the unreported conversation were. For one thing, the officer was rightly suspicious because it is not common to see someone openly carrying a gun. Concern. Public Safety. Brewsters attitude seems to be one of challenging for the sake of challenging. He's carrying a recorder hoping to catch some officer in a miss-step. He is looking for trouble, without thinking about the consequences. When people behave in ways that deliberately draws attention to themselves you have to wonder about their motives - good or bad. That provokes concern, sometimes, and thus the inquiry from the officer.

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repetivity said on October 3, 2010 at 10:46 AM

And for the record, "Gun-toting rednecks", while not a politically correct protected class, is still name calling.

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repetivity said on October 3, 2010 at 10:44 AM

Yessir. As the King of " call(ing) down anyone who has a different opinion than you" your hypocrisy is staggering (as usual). In any event, buy a book about the founding of this great country and open it. Thumbing one's nose at authority is a founding principle. So long as my actions hurt no other, I am well within my rights to do so. It is only the tyranny of the most sensitive that has deeply eroded this basic tenet of American life.

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yogibear said on October 3, 2010 at 10:31 AM

slappywag-----Keeping us safe IS their job you kncklehead.

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 9:59 AM

yogibear it is NOT the police's job to keep you safe. If you think I am wrong, maybe you should do a little reading and educate yourself on the subject.

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yessir said on October 3, 2010 at 9:58 AM

@slappy.... do you feel a need to try and call down anyone who has a different opinion than you? Me the one with the problem? Hmmm. I may well have been around firearms more in my life than you my friend (can't say as I don't know your personal experience), but suffice to say... it's not the people who might carry firearms that concern me... it's the ones who are carrying them to thumb their nose at authority, society, or both.

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mrmagoo said on October 3, 2010 at 9:53 AM

I have 2 pistols that I use for target shooting for fun in an indoor range and i keep one on my nightstand at night but I will not carry it out in public cause it is just asking for trouble!!! and on asking for I.D. I don't care what I am doing if a police officer ask for my I.D. I will gladly give it to him!! when I went to Malaysia on vacation and stopped in Singapore and a police officer with a solider next to him with an AK47 asked for my passport I gave it to him but god forbid if a U.S. police officer ask a mexican for I.D. all of this is stupid!! and when i they asked for my passport i didnt scream discrimination!! IDIOTS!!!

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mrmagoo said on October 3, 2010 at 9:46 AM

just make sure our police don't bother a mexican thats not a U.S. citizen!! it would violate their rights!!

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 9:37 AM

nethinm, not exercising your rights because someone might get offended? Are you serious? It is YOUR RIGHT. Who cares who gets offended? This is the same mentality that got us where we are today. Our rights are slowly being eroded away under the guise of security and the view that someone might get offended. The way I see it: If anyone gives up a right for the illusion of security or because someone else might get offended, they are a complete fool.

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yogibear said on October 3, 2010 at 9:33 AM

nethinim- Yes some people have the right to carry a gun. But the legal gun owners can thank the illeagal killing gun carriers for questioning them. Someone can appear law abiding, and then unload their weapon. Let the police keep us safe.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 9:32 AM

This group of gun owners in Spanaway felt they had to carry ..."a lot of firepower..." to make their point. They are way beyond words. That is scary. I wonder about the thinking process of anyone who automatically reaches for a gun to make a point. The situation is already inflamed and going for your gun just makes it worse. Some folks will see my point - but most, sadly, will not. I expect that. Having a gun strapped to your hip just in case something happens is certainly a valid reason for some people to carry openly. But how often will something happen that will warrent the need to respond with deadly force? Where will all those bullits go? Who among the innocent could be hit by them? What kind of scars could this sort of scenerio leave on so many people? If "just because..." is a good enough reason to carry, then why not all of us carry backpacks full of emergency supplies incase there is a terrorist attack, or an earthquake, or other disaster?

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 9:29 AM

yessir, sounds to me like you better stay home all the time, then. People have concealed permits and they carry whether you think they do or not. Just because YOU panic when you see a legally, openly carried gun means nothing other than you are not mentally stable enough to handle it. I bet you would pee your pants in the same manner if a person with a concealed permit leaned over and you could see his gun inside his jacket.

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tbroyan600494437 said on October 3, 2010 at 9:19 AM

The reason that most people use to carry a gun is for protection, but why don't you find the open carrier's down on the corner where illegal drug actions are known to exist and make this same statement? It seems to be a waste of resources. Gun owners making false controversy so as to get a little free press without really being out in harms way. Not to mention that after a public exposure that they may become a target for theft. Guns are valuable.

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dakotanative said on October 3, 2010 at 9:18 AM

I have to agree with snow. If you aren't acting funny, they are not going to question you, but if you have nothing to hide, no problem if they do ask for an ID. Now, I do think that carrying out in the open is acting funny unless you are a cop, but it is legal. They say that somewhere around 90% of criminals are caught in random checks or from minor infraction, so feel free to stop me is it makes it safer for all is us.

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1973bobm said on October 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM

yessir these are not rednecks, rednecks have enough common sence to leave the gun in the truck. These are folks who want to stand up for thier god given right to prove they are idiots.

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nethinim said on October 3, 2010 at 8:50 AM

The gentlemans rights were violated. The police once again oversteped their authority in demanding I.D.. Certainly I can understand their motivation for making the request however. The Police are "Public Saftey Officers", to make their presience known in a situation which might make some ill at ease is part of their job. unless the person with a weapon is acting in an unstable manner, they have no right to question him. No one has the right to demand anything of anyone, without a valid reason. The Police often forget this, there by ailienating those they are sworn to protect. However, to openly carry a fire arm is a crime deterant in it's self. It would certainly disuade anyone intending mischief. There is no room however for a "Macho" mentality. I have a concelled liscence, I do not open carry out of consideration for those who might be offended.

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taxdollarsponge said on October 3, 2010 at 8:49 AM

@skippythedog,calling people names on the internet doesn't justify your imagination of disarming a armed citizen.

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yessir said on October 3, 2010 at 8:42 AM

I'm not against private gun ownership... but... there's a starbucks I won't be going to anymore. I don't need to have my coffee with 37 gun toting rednecks who have a problem with authority... seems like a bad combination.

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slappywag said on October 3, 2010 at 8:35 AM

treeclimber, what about people who have a concealed weapons permit? You gonna "get up and leave" when you have no idea that someone is carrying? You embarrass yourself.

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freedomthinker said on October 3, 2010 at 8:24 AM

no id is necessary for open carry, just concealed carry. the cops absolutely violated his civil rights.

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bouncer22 said on October 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM

I don't see what the big problem is. I don't see this being any different form a cop walking up to you and asking for your driver's license while sitting in your vehicle and, he/she wants to talk with you. My opinion is, if you are that up tight about showing your ID then you must have something to hide or you are trying to cause trouble. This idea of "violating my rights" has become such a loose phrase that everyone has been using it for far too long. If the cop had requested to take your gun away just because you were open carrying the weapon, that is infringing on your rights. To ask for your ID is nothing. If you are going to carry openly then just be prepared to be asked questions and present your ID. No big deal people. Again, if you have problems with this then you should ask why are you really carrying the weapon in the open. Are you trying to show off, make a point, or for protection. It better be for protection and to hell with showing off or making a point.

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stranglehold said on October 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM

treeclimber - either you're doing a poor job at trolling or you're mentally impaired. Either way, go be stupid someplace else.

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treeclimber said on October 3, 2010 at 8:03 AM

i think the people in public should just get up and leave as soon as possible when somebody comes in wearing a gun for a cup of coffee or to the dinner table .because any body that dose so is very unstable mentaly and can,t be trusted if you have little kids just get between them and the gun slinger and get them out of harms way.

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rigidprinciples said on October 3, 2010 at 7:19 AM

This is actually a pretty good way to make some extra cash. Strap on your gun, then walk around openly carrying. As long as you live where there are alot of anti-gun nuts (Portland, Seattle, etc.), you can be certain at least one cop will infringe on your individual, inherent rights. Worth a mil or 2 maybe ?

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sirbobby98121312 said on October 3, 2010 at 7:08 AM

Enough. The open carriers are legal - the cops feel that they must investigate - OK. The law; which the police uphold, does not require that ID be carried at all, unless driving or under other implied consent conditions. All of the 'it makes me uncomfortable' comments merely indicate how unimportant these feelings are, if all that is needed to 'make it all better' is to put a layer of cloth over it. Head in the sand indeed. Since this 'man with a gun' activity happens statewide and few other police departments get all upset and huffy, are they more professional or just better educated?

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davinwa said on October 3, 2010 at 6:46 AM

I'm a "permit" carrier who never open carries, but that is legal in this state if I desire to do so. I don't believe for one second that his rights were violated. Law enforcement may make contact and ask for ID if they choose. That's OK, but I don't believe that WA has a Stop & Identify law. Because he chose to to show his ID doesn't mean that his rights were violated. He should have asked if he was being detained and/or if he was free to go. That would have really put the ball in the officers court and he would have to make a wise choice at that point. Did he really have a reasonable suspicion that would have required proof of identity? Probably not.

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quacker said on October 3, 2010 at 6:45 AM

Peterh, what is the connection with the Lakewood Four? Is it simply that the officers were killed with a gun? I don't think the shooter in that one was walking around the coffee shop in open carry, and certainly not with a group of people trying to assert their gun rights.

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applmagotqrntine said on October 3, 2010 at 6:45 AM

Was the deputy on a coffee break? I thought cops in Pierce country were told not to go to coffee shops after what happened in Parkland.

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quacker said on October 3, 2010 at 6:40 AM

Nope, no "permit" required to own a gun in WA state. A permit is required for carrying the weapon concealed, but that is different from what Brewster and his supporters were doing by displaying the weapons openly. It is different in other states, some of which do require permits.

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seattlentv said on October 3, 2010 at 6:06 AM

I'm on the fence with this one. I can certainly understand the officers concerns with this but I applaud anyone's efforts at defending the few rights we seem to still have in this society. I personally HATE guns, have never and will never touch one. Because of that I am ignorant on the gun laws, so my question is when you have a gun don't you have to have a permit and isn't it lawful for an officer to ask for that? Is your name on your permit and can they look you up from there? I thought this was the case, have I watched to much TV?

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kendianne said on October 3, 2010 at 5:53 AM

I am a strong advocate of gun rights, including the right to carry openly, BUT anyone who does this in a crowded shopping area HAS to be aware that they are making people UNNECESSARILY nervous, and that they are being COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to those of us who support gun rights. GET A CONCEALED WEAPONS PERMIT! We gun rights advocates do NOT need to CREATE more anti-gun nuts, nor do we need to give them any more motivation to create more anti-gun legislation.

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hoped said on October 3, 2010 at 5:45 AM

Afraid of speaking to the authorities, fear your bristia, stay at home, with your weapon. Seek medical help for your fears before inflectin shame on yourself and your family. Weapons will not solve your fears .

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peterh said on October 3, 2010 at 4:53 AM

I have a concealed weapons permit but don't usually open carry. In my opinion (I'm not a lawyer), the officer was reasonable to request the person's ID for the reason stated in the article. Remember the Lakewood Four. Law enforcement officers are a little leery these days. They'd like to go home at night to their families and make sure our communities are safe.

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anonymoususer said on October 3, 2010 at 3:07 AM

Would they have felt better if it was a concealed weapon they didn't know about? I value my rights and if the law says I do not have to show my ID, they have no right to ask. I'm appalled by those who do not defend their rights. If you give up your rights soon you have no freedom,

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snowcajun said on October 3, 2010 at 2:01 AM

I agree with captjp, I have zero issues in showing any police officer my identification whether the law says I have to or not. After all they're out there protecting us with their lives and in all honesty it makes sense, how in the world are they going to know whether or not someone packing a gun is a felon or not? I have no objection with them asking for my ID, or my showing my showing ID or license if requested. For one I appreciate their service and their being there for us all.

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jonad said on October 3, 2010 at 1:41 AM

To all you folks defending law, realize... not all laws make sense, and arguing whether a law makes sense is also our right as an American. I myself do not carry, in any form... BUT! my COMFORT is MY PROBLEM! So IF its the law... and it is!, then I can argue that I do not like the law, BUT! trying to make it seem like those who carry legally, do not have the right, or need to be controlled by DISCOMFORT is fascist... oh yeah, remember THAT word?! It is fascist to deny and attempt to actively usurp other people's rights. In other words, you people who are uncomfortable... suck it up, and walk away if that's what it takes to deal with it, but YOU do not have the right to terrorize, abuse, harass, and otherwise unlawfully manipulate our public services to your 'personal cause'... if you call 9/11, you BETTER realize, YOU may be civily sued by both public services (who can also levy a criminal charge for absuing the service) and by the person you are harassing, with your whinning.

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jonad said on October 3, 2010 at 1:27 AM

Here we have the actual reality behind this whole issue... many people resisting the law. They DEMAND that others OBEY the law, but themselves, refuse to. They are anarchists, and yet point their fingers at others, to control and manipulate them, calling them anarchists. They are Americans! The police do not have the right to demand ID given the lack of probable cause, but Americans want a country like Germany during WWII, seriously, they believe they would feel COMFORT and HAPPINESS under black boots!? I'm not kidding, I have spoken to thousands! of people over this last decade, for run of the mill to MENSA members, and the grand concensus is we were BEAT on 9/11 and we don't want it to happen again in any form, nomatter... that's NO MATTER! what RIGHTS, we have to give up... KEEP US SAFE AND HAPPY AND IN FRONT OF THE TV. Here I am on King 5 saying this, but... it's true. SO sure,... these objectors of the law, are 'UNCOMFORTABLE!' so all bets are off... they will resist!!

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captjp said on October 3, 2010 at 12:41 AM

Yes I carry, but out of respect for a police officer if ask I will show any ID he may ask for. It’s not just for his safety but for yours and the public around you. I will also inform him that I’m carrying and will follow his instruction if I am stop for any reason. When you carry a weapon you also carry responsibly, if you are not trained in the use of a fire arm, you more then likely will become the victim or will cause injuries to some innocent person. If you use your weapon for any reason in the city, you’re going to open one big can of worms. Stupidly and guns don’t mix.

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tomas said on October 3, 2010 at 12:31 AM

OK, folks, this really isn't a "second amendment" problem here, but a fourth amendment problem that was being brought to the public's and the sheriff's department attention. Mr. Brewster was stopped, detained, and intimidated by four officers and had ID demanded without proper legal cause. The Supreme Court of the United States and the Washington State Supreme court have both issued rulings, and there is more than ample case law from nearly all states, that make the way Mr. Brewster was treated unlawful. It is settled law that unless an officer is able to clearly state what crime is afoot (that "reasonably articulated suspicion") he may NOT demand identification. Coercion by four armed officers to show ID is not lawful. That it was because Mr. Brewster was legally and openly carrying a firearm is secondary. We are not yet to the "Papers, please!" stage in this country.

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landesign1999 said on October 3, 2010 at 12:19 AM

Inconsiderate, self-centered, confrontational, insecure - all this and more, just to carry a weapon because they can. What is the point? Why not carry a samurai sword, or a ball and chain? It is probably legal. Why not scream obscenities on the street corner - it may be legal. Why not do it just because you can? Restraint, respect for the feelings of others and what makes them uncomfortable, or not feeling the need to do so just because you can - just for starters. Why do mothers and children have to see other people in public carrying guns just because these people want to. It is a gun, for God's sake. People can be killed by them. They make other's nervous. Sure they have the right, apparently, but is that in itself a good enough reason to do it? Is it compelling enough? Must we all really see people carrying guns? What is the larger picture here? Is it really a good enough reason to make people feel uncomfortable in public just because we can? What is the point?

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skippythedog said on October 2, 2010 at 11:46 PM

I have a CWP and carry....concealed. Openly carrying a gun in public, amongst crowds of people, is a very raw invitation for someone to take it away from the carrier. For instance: That little dweeb in the picture w/ the giant hand cannon on his hip: Were I a bad guy, I could (even approaching from his front side) instantly and barehandedly disable him AND take his gun away from him in about 2-3 seconds....Now what? Oh, he carries a backup? I'm gonna kick him in his teeth (adding to his broken right wrist and dislocated shoulder) and take that too....What? Triple redundant? I'm tired of this. The safety is now off on his hand cannon and he's getting smoked. Dude, cool knife...thanks.

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w7rkd said on October 2, 2010 at 11:25 PM

@ im911 and invalid. Thanks for clearing that up. I do think they could of found a better way to express their views than have a rally in a public place and make others uncomfortable without some kind of prior public notice, to me it was kind of a knee jerk response and poor planning. I have CW permit, but I carry it open or concealed. Being former SF and raised to respect firearms and hunted, I'm not too worried though about who knows if I am or not carrying. I live in a remote area where law enforcement response time is 45 minutes( ) and on 2 occasions have had to use my weapon in defense of my familly so I appreciate and respect the gun rights I do have, not like some pistol packing paranoids we see at times. I got pulled over on my motorcycle one time by a sheriff, from his car he yelled out "Are you carrying?" and I replied "Yes!" He walked towards me and smiled, all he wanted to know is if I was carrying and ran asked for my ID, he came back and told me to have a nice day!

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invalid said on October 2, 2010 at 10:50 PM

@w7rkd: im911 didn't say that. He/she was commenting on how so many others here have said that. I have a concealed pistol license and carry regularly. I could carry openly, but I'd rather not hang a target on myself saying, "Shoot me first!" And after a recent encounter with seeing someone open carrying, I have to say it makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Me - who has no problem with guns, no problem carrying a gun, and no problem with others carrying guns. It was just a little bit jarring. Like so many things in life, just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should. Guns make some people really uncomfortable, and we as gun owners should not go out of our way to make people uncomfortable simply because we can. And one more comment: When a law enforcement officer asks to see your ID, regardless of what you think, comply with the officer's instructions and argue your point later. A guy in Arizona got himself killed a while back trying to argue his point first.

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im911 said on October 2, 2010 at 10:39 PM

w7rkd, I would like to clear something up about that comment at the bottom of my post. I ran out of room. I was trying to make a point of quoting someone else that I didn't agree with. They were qualifying their comments, like I mentioned, and then saying even though you have the right to do something, why should you if it offends someone else. That kind of thinking is why our rights keep coming under attack and people try to put limits on them. I agree with you that law enforcement can't be everywhere. I work in law enforcement and I appreciate the honest armed citizen. Read some of my other posts and you will see that I am very progun. God bless America!!!

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w7rkd said on October 2, 2010 at 10:30 PM

@ im911 You stated "I agree they have the right to carry but why should they." In my opinion and from my observations, the reason is for self defense and because law enforcement arrives after the crime has been commited, not during. Law enforcement can"t be everywhere at once. Those who would like to disarm the public and take away our right to own and "carry" a firearm are also inviting criminals to have their way with the public and welcoming any country to invade us. If you want control and manipulation, go to China and try and stroke your ego's over there.

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seattlebusinessm said on October 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM

like a moron

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seattlebusinessm said on October 2, 2010 at 10:26 PM

Youngfrank – Open carry is legal in most states, Washington being one of them. Many people choose to carry to protect liberty and life. I carry for personal protection, with so many law enforcement cuts, and crazies in this state, it makes sense to me. The officer was out of line asking for ID, and I would have questioned him as well. As for legality, to carry you must not be a felon, not have a court order prohibiting you not to carry, and a slew of other items, but you don’t need a permit. To carry a concealed firearm you must go through a much more rigorous process, one I, and over 230,000 Washington State citizens have gone through, and one that allows for personal protection. People need to realize that just because you call 911 law enforcement can’t be to you in seconds, and sadly if someone is trying to harm you, or your loved ones, having the option to open carry, or apply for a concealed permit to carry is a right I hold dear. Educate yourself Youngfrank, you sound like

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robertlhartman said on October 2, 2010 at 10:13 PM

I thank the people who discuss at opencarry dot org. And people of the states who open carry .Their mission is to educate the public on open carry of firearms. The people carrying their sidearms in public are heros to me. Don't give up what you guys are doing. You are making a difference. I feel good everytime someone joins you and your mission. Again, thank you.

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noskills said on October 2, 2010 at 9:58 PM

What they did was perfectly legal but it was also in really bad taste. The only worse venue they could of picked to protest would of been a Forza Coffee.

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im911 said on October 2, 2010 at 9:55 PM

It's not the open carry people that brought Starbucks into the picture. It was antigun activists that approached Starbucks corporate management and wanted them to ban guns. Starbucks took a nutral stand, thus drawing favor with the open carry people and they patronize the establishment for it. In order to carry concealed you have to ask the government for permission to exercise your right and pay a tax to get the permit. These people don't carry concealed, probably because they don't have a permit and they don't want to pay the tax. Therefore the option is to carry in the open and exercise a personal right.

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goldiemae said on October 2, 2010 at 9:45 PM

Why do the open carry people gravitate to Starbucks? Why are they dragging this *one* business into their mission to make a statement? Starbuck's has repeatedly said they will follow local laws regarding weapons-open or otherwise and does not want to be in the middle of this. I find that more aggravating than their ridiculous reasoning for open carry. (BBaxter is correct...it's better if the bad guys don't know you are armed or where you are carrying, much easier to block your access to your weapon or make you their first target )

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im911 said on October 2, 2010 at 9:42 PM

I like how people think they know what a police officer is obligated to do. I am a police officer. I got a call today from someone walking on one of the areas public trails. They called to complain that a person passed by them was wearing a gun. They said the person didn't say anything to them, he didn't waive the gun around and he was just walking down the trail. They just wanted him identified. They didn't even want contact after the call. I told the dispatcher that I wasn't going to contact that person. My Sgt agreed and the call was cancelled. I could have gone and "asked" the person for identification but, I couldn't demand it based on simply wanting to know if he might be a felon. He wasn't doing anything wrong, so if he told me to pound sand, my contact with him would have been over. I wouldn't try to intimidate him into providing me his personal information. I also like how people qualify thier comments, "I agree they have the right to carry but why should they."

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slappywag said on October 2, 2010 at 9:39 PM

Commenter morons, all morons.

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slappywag said on October 2, 2010 at 9:30 PM

Youngfrank, people like you are the reason I want to puke every day. Not only did these people NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG, it simply goes to prove that you do not have an education, and could care less about the Washington State Constitution. Your personal perception of "how it should be" bares ZIP in how it REALLY IS.

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slappywag said on October 2, 2010 at 9:28 PM

ClearasMUD you really need to go back and re-READ what you wrote. You suggested that open carry was OK with you if people have a concealed weapons permit..... this makes you a moron. This is NOT required in Washington. As I said before, get an education and stop being a sissy-mary. Have a nice night, and hopefully you will stop being a fool.

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youngfrank said on October 2, 2010 at 9:18 PM

We don't have enough problems in this world without having a bunch of gun nuts getting between me and my coffee. These guys DID do something wrong ... they are actively provoking a hostile response. They don't have to do that. The (God bless America) US of A has more than enough guns to kill everyone a couple times over. You want to see what happens to a country that lets any idiot carry a gun? Check out Mexico. Me, I'm for a whole lot of gun control. As a former Prez said .. Bring it on!

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sensibleguy said on October 2, 2010 at 9:10 PM

The public just needs to make sure that any time we see someone not in a police uniform with a gun we need to call 911. Wont take long for the plain clothes cops, bail enforcement, private security and other non uniformed law enforcement to get tired of it.

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clear2copy said on October 2, 2010 at 9:04 PM

slappy.. your post is painful to read. You'll notice that the police didn't do anything to stop the 'open carry' of these subjects.. but to verify that, after a weapons complaint, the person that is displaying a firearm isn't prohibited from doing so. All these over-emotional 12 year old girls that are crying foul need to relax.

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slappywag said on October 2, 2010 at 8:57 PM

bbaxter929437904, I suggest you educate yourself on the law. Whether or not you support it, Washington State is an OPEN CARRY STATE. Period. No concealed weapons permit required. PERIOD. I hate it when idiots like you attempt to thrust their views onto the STATE CONSTITUTION. Figure it out, dude. These guys did nothing wrong. Period. If you cannot figure out that this is about violating the RIGHTS of the people with the guns carried in the open, then I don't know what to tell ya, pal.

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shandog said on October 2, 2010 at 8:49 PM

The article states: "But as a result of that encounter, a group of about 35 "open carry" gun advocates -- those who are legally licensed to carry their guns in full view-- " ....Legally licensed to carry guns?? Open carry does not require a license. No wonder people are so stupid they don't know their rights. The gun must be registered...but there is NO license involved. Only people who wish to conceal must have a license to do so. How stupid can this article be?

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bbaxter929437904 said on October 2, 2010 at 8:47 PM

I'm all for the right to bear arms and that if you are legally eligible for a Concealed Weapons Permit, then fine. Recognize the FIRST word folks! Being a gun owner myself, I've never felt the need to brandish my weapon in public just because I can. It raises too many eyebrows and draws too much attention. Plus, you now are alerting those out there you are armed and it will give you a false sense of security. Especially when the criminal sees your weapon and instead of come up in front of you, they can sneak up behind you.

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slappywag said on October 2, 2010 at 8:47 PM

clear3coppy R tard. M. R. not a criminal, but U R 2pid. Open carry is completely legal in this state and protected by the state Constitution. End of story. If you carry in the open, expect to know the officers by first name, but they CANNOT do anything to you for open carry. Period. Unless you are not allowed to have a gun. Good luck determining that by looking at someone. At that moment, I would join their cause. You do not get to tell me whether or not I get to open carry unless you have reason to believe that I am a felon. Otherwise, pound sand, officer.

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trojan33 said on October 2, 2010 at 8:43 PM

So now they are going to pull every car over to see if they are driving without a license?

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dreambeing said on October 2, 2010 at 8:39 PM

Hey 'runway12' ...brandishing a gun means: "to shake or wave menacingly, flash or flaunt. Openly carrying a gun in a holster is NOT brandishing! You are a MORON !

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clear2copy said on October 2, 2010 at 8:36 PM

PINHEADS.. the police are required to investigate a weapons complaint.. this was handled correctly. This has nothing to do with gun-control, but criminals with guns control. Remove your hormonal emotion around the issue FFS

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treeclimber said on October 2, 2010 at 8:36 PM

i guess i need to take my 44 magum automatic to starbucks. just encase one of those packing a pistol is a ex convick wanting to kill somebody, its hard to tell the differance between perverts ,mentaly ill people,exkillers,normal people,except when they do strange and dumb things,like bring there guns to town and dare anybody to try and take them away. i think we need to dig up wyatt and let him handle these gunslingers.

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batti4 said on October 2, 2010 at 8:35 PM

A concealed weapons permit is just that! CONCEALED PERMIT! Cover that s*** up!!! I belieive it is a persons right to carry, but it also is the non gun toting patron's right to be comfortable in a coffee shop! I have a permit to carry, I don't carry it everywhere with me! These people need to learn respect for others and cover the weapons. I would feel on edge if I saw someone walkign aroung openly displaying a gun! My sense of security would be taken away and that is a violation of MY right! With all the violence in this state right now, guns make everyone a little nervous because I don't know who has a permit and who doesn't! Taht cop was just making sure this guy was legally carrying! SHEESH! GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE BUDDY!

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tugthug said on October 2, 2010 at 8:24 PM

Great! You have to show ID for carrying a firearm in the open, but an illegal alien can walk into any DOL and get a drivers license (ID) without having to show ID to prove who they are. Looks like are priorties are all messed up!

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stopthemadness57 said on October 2, 2010 at 8:02 PM

Well said Runway12

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runway12 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:51 PM

For those who like to interpret the 2nd amendment to their liking I have to ask you this, Is it not a citizen’s right to assemble in a place without one causing or looking to cause confrontation or disrupt the peace? Does not the First Amendment state “… the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition…” In today’s world if anyone felt threaten by a group or individual openly brandishing a gun is that not violating the First Amendment? Don't give me the 2nd amendment business until you can prove that no one in that area or coffee shop had a peaceful feeling of this situation. Police just don't show up because they have nothing better to do. They were either called or summoned to deescalate an un-peaceful situation. Those people who felt threatened are the ones who should argue about their rights being violated buy this group of gun owners just as much those claiming their gun rights were violated.

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stopthemadness57 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:43 PM

Bigmurr and selfdefense, you completely took my statement out of context.. I posted "why would anyone need to carry a gun all the time anyway" referring to carrying it to a coffee shop or a park where children play.... funny how you would just cite part of the statement.

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silverton said on October 2, 2010 at 7:38 PM

Save this article people. Ed Troyer is admitting that if people carry guns, his deputies will harass them. Mr Ed, you may not know this, but your statements are an admission of a crime.

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indexman said on October 2, 2010 at 7:35 PM

The guy that shot those police at the other coffee shop did not have a visible weapon!!! It was hidden until he went inside. Give me a break!

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unhappy said on October 2, 2010 at 7:34 PM

how stupid, cover the dam gun up and quit trying to get attention... didnt your parents give you enough attention...acting like a bunch of little kids

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bigmurr said on October 2, 2010 at 7:27 PM

Stop the madness, The sentence, Why does anyone NEED to carry a gun. Carrying a gun is, not a wish, dream, must, suppose to, want to, feel like. It is a right. I understand how you would feel, as well as I would also, But what im trying to say, was the police right or wrong here, by what he did. As me being the public at that situation, i would feel uneasy also, but it is not illegal, my feelings do not make it illegal. I do respect the police, I could never be up to do there job at all. Just trying to make a point about governing on feelings. Thats all.

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eggsem said on October 2, 2010 at 7:22 PM

I can't believe it!!! I go to a comment and want to make one on KIRO and all I get are advertisements????? Blow me off!!!!

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eggsem said on October 2, 2010 at 7:20 PM

Is this like serious???? We have a gun let's bring it to Starbucks??? Like kill a few deputys or just show my guns???? So screwed up!!!

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selfdefense said on October 2, 2010 at 7:19 PM

...adding another note to STMadness...by the way, there are about 330,000 people in WA state that have a concealed carry permit.... Dude, you may be the few people out there "without" a gun....

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selfdefense said on October 2, 2010 at 7:16 PM

stopthemadness...you should re-read your post. You start by asking why the heck anyone needs to carry a gun...and then go on to say it's a war zone out there....just remember, when seconds county, the police will be there in minutes.... I take exception in the PCSD statement, to Mr Troyers comparison of a law abiding citizen, to the criminal that perpetrated his crime in Tully's...it truly is frightening to think that a officers observation skills working for PCSD is unable to discern a bad guy from a law abiding citizen. Is that the view through their windshield of us? What Troyer didn't tell the media in his statement, is that during the detainment (Tom was not allowed to leave and surrounded by four officers)...is that the officers obviously weren't concerned about their safety, or they would have disarmed him (which they didn't). This is police hazing....WA is not a "demand ID" state....and demanding ID of a law abiding citizen without cause, is a 4A violation..period.

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cougforester said on October 2, 2010 at 7:15 PM

People feel 'uneasy' when people wear a gun - so how do they feel when the criminal keeps it down his pants and opens fire?! Wouldn't you rather see a gun and where their hands are? I am CWP holder - you don't see my gun but it is on me. Husband is too and it is on him...we don't make you nervous but we have fire power and ammo on us and are willing to use it to stop dirt bags like the one who opened fire on 4 police officers or any other innocent person.

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creole1953 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:14 PM

Regardless of the police officers concern, he had no right to request ID on the open carry advocate. Open carry is legal in WA, so what's the big deal. I think it is the other person's issue rather than the carrier of a gun. The law seems lax enough that it is up to the LEO's discretion what constitutes/or warrants concern of other citizens. The Liberal gun-haters will not quit trying until we are all disarmed. I carry concealed, but have many times wanted to carry openly. Is it true that once you carry openly you cannot carry concealed anymore? Someone tried to tell me that is the law...I looked and found no such law.

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somecynical said on October 2, 2010 at 7:13 PM

OK, So respect the man with the badge. He is there to help us and let's not make his or her job any more difficult than it is. My wife and I ALWAYS carry weapons but we are very discreet about it. We are both very mellow easy going people but we have both had loved ones murdered and we know bad people exist. I pray each day that we never need our weapons but it is better to have one and not need than need one and not have. I have been approached by law enforcement and asked to prove my legal status. No problem---and the officers have always been very professional they are just doing their job.

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diamonddon said on October 2, 2010 at 7:12 PM

The only problem that I see in Open Carry is if you are in a place of business and someone comes in to rob the place, the first one they are going to shoot is the one with the gun. Reference the Forza Coffee Shop, just because you open carry is no guarantee you will be able to even get a shot off. I carry concealed myself, and feel it is in my best interest as well as welfare of any others that may be around.

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ka7frz6375452367 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:12 PM

Shame on KING 5! The reporting on this story was calculated to incite the community's strong feeling about guns. The statement "However, one can't escape the fact that officers approached Brewster at a Spanaway coffee shop, which is located mere miles away from another coffee shop: Forza coffee in Parkland, where four police officers were killed less than a year ago. " is irrelevant to the story. That incident was a very tragic scene created by a career criminal and the community has yet to heal from those wounds. It is irresponsible for KING 5 to bring it up every chance they get. Tabloid reporting at its worst!

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lc5940 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:06 PM

With the memory of the 4 police officers who were killed by a 4th amendment gun toter still fresh in everyone's mind, I can see something wrong with this. Why would anyone who was not looking to draw attention to himself carry a gun on his person into a public "coffee shop" ? It seems to me that if you want to draw attention to yourself then that is the way to do it. To think that you would not be approached and asked for ID by the police officer is rediculous. I understand and agree with the 4th amendment and believe that it is one's right but in all honesty why do this. If I was the owner of a coffee shop chain in western washington I would post a sign that no weapons allowed on the premises. I would not do this to try to step on someone's 4th amendment right but would this out of RESPECT for the dead officers.

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bigdave55 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:02 PM

Well sounds like PCSO is going to be real busy responding to calls where no crime has been committed or suspected of a crime being committed just to stick to their guns, sort of speak. The Officer was wrong for pushing the issue, plain an simple. If he had cause for alarm, would you not think he would have been taken into custody? This was a fishing trip and the officer came up empty handed. An FOIA request was done on this encounter and from my understanding at this point, the PCSO has no information concerning this incident, HMMM, The news shows not two responses to the incident in question. Along with this there would be a radio call as 3 other deputies showed up as well. The idea of the officer in this incident choose to show up at the event (off duty) speaks volumes as his is poor attitude.

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stopthemadness57 said on October 2, 2010 at 7:00 PM

I am so sick of these people who just LOOK for ways to disrespect the police and put them in a bad light, they are here to protect us. If I were at that Starbucks and saw him with the gun I would have probably called the police. Why does anyone need to carry their gun all the time anyway and why didn't the guy just show the officer his ID, show a little respect for the guys out there in the "war zone" which is what these streets are turning into!! One last note: common sense tells me a criminal COULD be walking around with their guns out in the open, I'm sure they know the law too!!

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bigmurr said on October 2, 2010 at 6:59 PM

Well I guess what we are learning here, IF it's kinda like, makes me FEEL like, close to another scene that a bad thing happened, similar like, almost was, thought that, wondering if, seemed like, all those wishful terms, means that you rights can be violated. Wondering if that is the same as, driving around a blind corner on a road in a car, AND there is a patrolman pointing a RADAR gun at you. its kinda like, anyone pointing a gun at you, makes me feel like, not far from where a bad scene was, was almost like, though that, almost was, seemed like, made me feel like, means that you can violate someones right. Are we now enforcing laws on FEELINGS. Was it illegal or not ??? Carrying the gun, or the enforcement. Because if its on feelings, lets head down that road. Please tell me. I want to hear your side,

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collegeguy said on October 2, 2010 at 6:58 PM

Thank you to all the people correcting this dumb reporter. I understand some people have problems with the open carry law but as other have pointed out, it is legal for ANYONE to carry a gun openly in this state, no license is required. Now, if you concealed it, you do have to have a license. I see no need to carry either way most of the time but there is no need for a license if it is out in the open. The only people not allowed to carry at all are felons who have had their rights revoked.

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yogibear said on October 2, 2010 at 6:52 PM

Show your permit and shut the he!! up!

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jonnybeggar said on October 2, 2010 at 6:52 PM

it is their right to open carry. i personally do not open carry though. i think people other than law officers who open carry are NERDS. i have not met one is not.

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ka7frz6375452367 said on October 2, 2010 at 6:51 PM

Ed Troyer clearly has his head firmly planted where is doesn't belong. Ed, what part of the 2nd amendment do you not understand? Let me refresh your memory; "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." And how about the 4th amendment; "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." If you approach me on such a pretense as your officer did with Mr Brewster, you will be looking down the barrel of a civil rights violation lawsuit. Promise, not threat. You said "We understand the law, we understand their rights...", I don't think you do. You better get it right or you better have a good lawyer.

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davegimlin said on October 2, 2010 at 6:46 PM

I saw this on tv tonight and one of the things that the reporter said was that it was legal to open carry if you had a license to do so. The state of Washington is an open carry state, there is no license needed to open carry in this state. The onlly restrictions would be if you were a convicted felon or if you had domestic violence charges or convictions, or other legal problems.

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seattleguns_net said on October 2, 2010 at 6:41 PM

From the story above: "But as a result of that encounter, a group of about 35 "open carry" gun advocates -- those who are legally licensed to carry their guns in full view" There is no such thing as a license to open carry. If you can legally own a firearm, you can legally open carry it without a license in Washington State.

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greatwhitellama said on October 2, 2010 at 6:27 PM

Yep, this guy will definitely win if he chooses to file a lawsuit. Violating someone's forth amendment rights is not okay.

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doug276614834154 said on October 2, 2010 at 6:26 PM

Violating civil rights? Bull pucky! BUT on the other hand if those people were at the other coffee shop a year ago maybe we wouldn't have had 4 officers killede. This is a double bladed sword.

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cpenrico24274615 said on October 2, 2010 at 6:25 PM

Um, if they were a felon, or for whatever other reason(s) not supposed to be in possession of a firearm, would they go around with their gun in plain view? Common sense says "No". So all you people afraid of guns and those carrying said guns, Get some common sense in that head of yours! Criminals hide their guns; It is they you have to fear. Sheriff's deputies, you too, get some common sense. Yeah people complained, but explain what I just said.

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taxdollarsponge said on October 2, 2010 at 6:21 PM

And here we go.

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