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Online public schools produce profits but some are failing students

by CHRIS INGALLS / KING 5 News

Bio | Email | Follow: @cjingalls

KING5.com

Posted on October 31, 2011 at 10:30 PM

Updated Tuesday, Nov 1 at 9:09 AM

It's hard times for school districts across the state. But online is the one place where public schools are flourishing.

Changes in Washington state law now allow private companies to operate in this new frontier and claim a share of public school dollars.

The Quillayute Valley School District is located in Forks, an isolated timber town out near the Washington Coast.

Exploding enrollment


Its student population has doubled in size in just a few years. It is the online enrollment that bumped up the headcount. Quillayute Valley administers the online high school called Insight School of Washington.

Patrick Mayberry is an Insight student in Pierce County. He joined to get away from some classroom bullies in this old school and his grades have improved.

“You are able to concentrate better that you can in an actual classroom," said Mayberry as he studied at his home in Orting.

Last year nearly 3,000 online students from across the state studied online through Insight. That’s far more than the 1,100 students who studied in traditional classrooms in Forks.

While the school district has oversight of Insight, the online school is actually owned and operated by a private company.

Public records obtained by KING 5 show that Quillayute schools paid The Apollo Group up to $1.2 million a month to run Insight School.

The money comes from public education dollars that the state pays for each student enrolled in a district.

Last year, the state paid about $7200 per Quillayute student – money that was split between the district and The Apollo Group.

More students mean more money. Since the school can enroll students from anywhere across the state, Insight runs recruiting campaigns with TV ads to draw in new students.

It has paid off for both the district and Apollo, a Phoenix-based company known for its chain of for-profit career colleges.

The increased enrollment gave Quillayute schools a bigger slice of state money to build the new school complex that is currently under construction.

The arrangement also gives a private company like Apollo rare access to Washington public education dollars.

A law passed by the Washington legislature in 2005 allows districts to partner with corporations to develop online school programs.

New school model

There are now 40 districts in the state with online programs. Most partner with corporations to provide the software and expertise for their online programs, but others allow corporations to run the entire program.

At Insight, the corporate partner not only provides software it also hires and pays the teachers.

“Fundamentally, for businesses the bottom line is profit," said education policy expert Dr. Wayne Au from the University of Washington’s Bothell campus.

He’s alarmed by documents obtained by KING 5 that show most of Insight’s teachers last year were non-union part-timers.  That results in cheaper labor costs.

The teacher to student ratio is 1:53, one teacher for every 53 online students.

"To see a 1:50 ratio for a class to me sounds almost outrageous. I don't see how a teacher can be a good teacher with that size of class," said Au.

Struggling students

Many Insight students are struggling.

According to state records for the 2009-2010 school year, these are the statistics for Insight students:

  • 50% are passing their classes
  • 45% dropped out of class
  • 7.2% estimated to graduate on time

Insight School responds

Quillayute Valley Schools Superintendent Diana Reaume said that many of Insight’s students are “at-risk” meaning they were struggling in the classroom long before they came to Insight.

She said the district didn’t always do a good job of weeding out students who wouldn’t do well online either.

"Part of (what we have) done is a better job of making sure kids are well matched to the program," said Reaume.

She expects much better scores when the state posts Insight's latest report card in a few months.

The district also has a new corporate partner this year.   A company called K12 is now running Insight.

Reaume said the corporate partnership isn't about profits.  She said the company's expertise and financial backing have been vital to the six year old program.

'We're still new and we've grown a lot as far as how to make things right to work for kids," said Reaume.

In depth:
Parents can check out the student performance of most schools here.  But it is important to note that some online schools do not separate their online school scores from the rest of the district.

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Comments: Displaying 1 - 15 of 38

No_Dropouts8fe said on January 13, 2012 at 3:54 AM

aosfh aksd dslkfls dkjdslk lksad

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intrepid1 said on November 9, 2011 at 8:50 PM

This is a bad model. Education dollars, YOUR tax dollars, are going to for-profit ventures... meaning, substantially less than 100% of the funding YOU pay is going to educating each student. It's important for the State and school districts to negotiate contracts for this sort of service that maximizes the dollars going into supporting the students... school districts are held accountable to this sort of thing, so the for-profit ventures should be as well. It's also undermines the teaching profession for these ventures to rely part-time educators who are required to retain certification (which requires annual refresher training as well as a college degree).

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ttylboy said on November 3, 2011 at 11:50 AM

Statistics can always be shown in whatever light you want them to be. There are failing students in Insight or other online programs just as there are in public schools. This is more about the public school system wanting to capture all that money that the online's have took from them. If you have a good public school system where kids do not fall between the cracks, no bullying, no crime, etc. then there wouldn't be much of a need for online schooling now would there? Homeschooling in any manner exists because our states do not teach our children the way we want them to. Yes there are good and bad parents who enroll their students in both public and online schools. Just because we school our own children and happen to use an online school does not take away the responsibility of me as the parent to make sure my student is learning. Bad student equates to bad teaching most of the time. There are exceptions though and we have to deal with those on a case-by-case situation.

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vickied said on November 2, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Insight is being used as a scapegoat.. I went to Insight for my boys who were struggling their home school district because they were falling through the cracks. Both my boys are ADHD, and our school district would NOT help me to help them. Basically I needed to follow my boys to school to keep up with what they needed and what they were supposed to do. They weren't able to pay attention. I spoke with many students in 2008-09 who were enrolled with this program at Insight and found many have the same issues. It's not about funds.. but they need to look deeper at why these kids are falling through the cracks in their home school districts.. don't just blame the online high schools for this! Many kids come because the parents are left with no other choice... and find that online schooling is NOT for them either. It takes ALOT of self push to do it! My oldest son graduated on time from Insight. My younger did NOT. But that was my younger son's fault too.

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Profits_Online said on November 2, 2011 at 5:14 PM

The issue is that CORPORATIONS are profiting from delivering education to students. That PROFIT comes from free taxpayer money. And, when taxpayer money (from the state) is used to generate profits FOR companies AND there is no return (b/c students aren't learning), that is a problem! Look at the OSPI DLD report-- lots of failures, few passing grades, & even fewer state assessments passed. Private corporations can advertise, market, and entice students away from their home district by offering free laptops, internet, and cash--things Public schools are NOT allowed to do. Thy can do this & make a profit b/c they hire mercenary teacher contractors for low wages. Districts throughout the state are losing students & face cuts b/c their students go to K-12 inc. owned Insight HS. Former legislators are active lobbyists paid by these companies to pass laws that favor them. Meanwhile the Governor announces ANOTHER $1.6BILLION in education cuts. Bernie Madoff would be proud.

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MomOf7 said on November 2, 2011 at 3:16 PM

Online school and the success of those students enrolled are greatly dependent on the parents. Yes it is a public school but parents have to be involved and oversee their child/ren and their schooling. It is a guided home-school program, ran through a public school, by a company! I have seven children who were not educated in a brick and mortar school. Two of those children are now college students who are enrolled at ITT and University of Alaska, and the remaining five are still enrolled in a public online school and will be until they are ready for college.

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MomOf7 said on November 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM

Their was a comment made that insinuates that if a child cannot “handle” brick and mortar school bullies then they wont be able to handle “real” life, I disagree. My children, especially those with IEP’s, cannot learn in an environment that they do not feel safe in. Not to mention how many young lives have been lost due to bully behaviors. It isn’t until after the loss of these children that anyone acknowledges that bullying is a problem and the brick and mortar schools are not addressing or handling these issues.

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MomOf7 said on November 2, 2011 at 3:14 PM

My children are enrolled in a public online school, not insight though. We have found that for our children with IEP's that online school works for them, where the brick and mortar schools failed them. One of my IEP children entered online school in the 8th grade and had a reading level at a 5th grade level and comprehension at a 3rd grade level. Two of my IEP children did not have basic math skills, such as knowing their times tables, at 6th and 8th grade. We fought with the brick and mortar schools for years about them consistently being not only below grade average but at a significant disadvantage if their levels did not improve. The brick and mortar schools only continued to spout the line of “well they have an IEP so she will not be at grade level anyway. When they go to the next grade they can work on it.” That is when we made the decision to pull all of our children out of the brick and mortar school and either do home-schooling or do public online school.

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mikaylea said on November 2, 2011 at 12:26 PM

You guys if you have a problem with Insight then don't let your kids go or go to it yourself. You have a choice and us kids that made the choice to go to the school is because its better for us. Some kids that go to this school did not do good in normal school, there not gonna do good here to, if they are not motivated.

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diano said on November 2, 2011 at 7:32 AM

I just watched the other piece on how insight schools started. I find it very intersting how this business started..Sounds like a nice back door deal to get tax payers to fit the bill. It's not about 'teaching' its about MONEY!!! Just look at the graduation rates at this online school 7%. Really?

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aziza said on November 1, 2011 at 8:51 PM

dakota? I have a question for you. You take issue with King 5 focusing on the failure rate. So why are the standards different for online schools, when the talk lately is about merit pay for teachers in the public schools? What is your position on the issue?

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momto2 said on November 1, 2011 at 8:28 PM

Online schools can be very beneficial for various reasons. The reasons why students choose online schools is not the issue here. In this news story there are a few facts missing. What King 5 doesn't tell us about is the criteria it takes to pass Insights online classes. I know from personal experience that a student can be failing a class and merely logging on daily with give them enough credits to pass the class. This school is passing students who would be failing by public school standards in order to receive the thousands of dollars each month for student enrollment. This kind of education is not helping anyone and costing the tax payers greatly. Budget cuts have caused many public schools to cut programs like music and sports. I would rather see my tax dollars be spent on bringing back those programs than wasted on an online school whose in the business to make money rather than foster education. This is nothing but tax dollar waste!

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onlineteacher said on November 1, 2011 at 7:40 PM

Profit corporations have the resources and knowledge to great great online classes. It would take YEARS for brick and mortar schools to be able to offer enough classes that are not contracted. Our local HS tells students to take online classes through a private organization that parents have to pay for.. and that is for STATE REQUIRED MATH CLASSES that students cannot get into because the class is full... and it is a class required for college. Bottom line, there are MANY profit corporations in our public schools. The vending machines, the school pictures, the graduation announcements and supplies, the T-shirt sales, any fundraiser that involves selling something, etc. Even all the textbooks that are used are made by companies for profit. Thanks for providing a platform for discussion.

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onlineteacher said on November 1, 2011 at 7:25 PM

All teachers at Insight are Highly Qualified, certificated, and passionate about helping students find success. It is not about the money to any of us. It is about helping students who need an alternative environment. The 99 part timers were grateful to be able to teach in a second job to supplement their incomes or a part time job that allowed them to have flexibility in their work schedule so they could take care of family commitments. If we were union, it would not be an option. This year, we have more full timers and fewer part timers. It is not about the money. It is about finding the best and most qualified teachers to work with the students at Insight. This is the best teaching team I have every worked with. We have students who are making a difference, changing their lives, and finding success. We are proud of our students. They work hard to pass their classes as we believe in a rigorous curriculum. To all you Insight families out there... SEE YOU AT GRADUATION!

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Kitsapkid said on November 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM

Was the girl with 5 "quality F's" from a broken home by any chance. If so, that goes along way in explaining her attitude regarding the importance of her education. If she was not from a broken home, it appears once again that old saying "the apple doesnt fall far from the tree" still holds true. First impressions of her dad (Rick B) read like this "The wheel's spinning, but the hamster's dead"!

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onlineteacher said on November 1, 2011 at 7:12 PM

I am SO PROUD of each and every one of you Insight students! You are pioneers in education reform while you are proving that you care enough about your education to try something new. I applaud you, Patrick, for showing the positive that Insight has done for you - I am sure that if this reporter had led on that he was going to slam your school you may not have participated. You did a great job. I apologize that this King 5 reporter did not do a good job on this story - or else he would have interviewed actual teachers and students who ARE succeeding and making a difference and there are MANY. Online learning is a great option for many. Students must be committed in order to succeed. That is the bottom line. Teachers of Insight go to great lengths to remind the student that an education is important and to help motivate that committment. It really helps when parents are checking grades and communicating with teachers as well... same as in a brick and Mortar school.

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virtualteacher said on November 1, 2011 at 5:31 PM

hey eagle86, I suppose students that have medical conditions that prevent them from attending normal school should just "deal with it" too. You are quick to assume that all students are similar to you, and since you were able to "deal", then all others would have the same capacity as you do. Can you imagine that its not as easy for others as it was for you? There are about 1000 different reasons someone might choose online education. The reasons don't matter as much to me why a student chooses virtual education, but I can say that there are more than you might think. Virtual education serves a population of students that traditional means have not been able to. Public / Private / For Profit / Non Profit., does it matter as long as the student has the opportunity to be served. If profit and corporations are bad, are you going to give up drinking Starbucks Coffee, paying your insurance premiums, and ditch your cell phone because they are all for-profit companies?

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nodropouts said on November 1, 2011 at 5:28 PM

Gregg Rosann, the president of a company that provides online learning solutions to school districts across the country that are battling the dropout epidemic, notes: "It was just two years ago that the U.S. Department of Education published a meta-analysis of more than 1,000 empirical studies on online learning. The analysis showed that, on average, students in online learning classes performed modestly better than those in face-to-face settings. We know that online learning can work. So why are so many online schools failing? One possible answer: Hubris. Good-intentioned people saw the transformative power of online education — and in many cases they also saw a market opportunity. They rushed in. They ignored critics. And instead of learning from veteran teachers and administrators, they sought to compete with them.” It doesn’t have to be this way. Read more at nodropouts.org/blog/online-learning-isnt-failing-online-programs-are-and-its-time-change

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eagle86 said on November 1, 2011 at 3:58 PM

If you cant handle the bullies and "popular twits" in your teen years good luck dealing as an adult.

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sailorgirl said on November 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM

Actually, Eagle86, it IS like college. There are plenty of online college courses available as well, and in fact, that is largely how I earned my bachelor's degree in nursing, and am also working towards my master's. Oh, and I am well socialized, thank you very much. (Insert eye roll). Junior high and high school aged kids can achieve plenty of socialization via activities such as sports, clubs, youth groups, etc., etc., etc. They do not have to sit in a classroom all day long being bullied and teased and made to feel inferior by the popular twits in order for it to count as "socialization."

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mikaylea said on November 1, 2011 at 3:45 PM

That is not what lands kids in these programs. I have medical that made it hard to go to school and still have medical treatment without missing school time. I also work part time. So it doesn't make it so we have the tools. Well your wrong it does. Also the school requires all the students to attend a live class once a week. We talk and discuss the work we are doing and are ideas. We are being social. It might not be the same as in person, but we have set up meeting times to study and everyone in the area gets together and study for are exams and test. Don't put all of us students in one group as bad kids because we are not!

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oldguy said on November 1, 2011 at 3:39 PM

Privatization = rip off.

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eagle86 said on November 1, 2011 at 3:09 PM

No, it is not like a college. In college you are forced to learn,collaborate, and work with others (in person) if you like them or not. Just like you will have to in the real world when you get a job. Online courses do NOT provide you the social skills necessary to be a success. The lack of these important skills seems to be what lands kids in these schools in the first place.

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mikaylea said on November 1, 2011 at 2:18 PM

I am a Insight student. When i went to normal school I got low grades. Now i have All A's. This story only focuses on the bad side. This school is just like college you must want to do the work. Of course if you are failing they want to keep you they want to give you a chance and help you. Not pass you to another school. I can say i love this school. Some days i dont like to do the work but in the end it pays off.

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eagle86 said on November 1, 2011 at 1:31 PM

Most kids are just lazy,overweight and self centered nowadays. Many factors are to blame. These online schools just provide another out for the kids that need to be failed to begin with.

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dakotanative said on November 1, 2011 at 1:21 PM

"He’s alarmed by documents obtained by KING 5 that show most of Insight’s teachers last year were non-union part-timers. That results in cheaper labor costs." He isn't alarmed that kids are failing, or that the teacher to student ratio is 50:1. He is alarmed that the union is not getting a cut. Most of the kids in the program are not straight A students looking for a new challenge. They are youngsters that had problems already, so a lower than average success rate is not a surprise. No different than the alternative schools like AI in the Clover Park SD. Focusing on the failure rate is rediculous. Even if 40% graduate, that is alot more than if the program were not offered.

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Lateralus said on November 1, 2011 at 12:23 PM

What a completely biased piece of journalism. I am very disappointed in King 5, what is in it for them to slam on online schools? Are they so lazy they can’t actually investigate? Where are the parents and the students they interviewed to show the successful side of Insight? If King 5 had actually done some research, they would have been able to present both sides of the online school story. It is important for people to do their own research and find the facts before believing everything they are told. People should not buy into this junk based on one father who is obviously deflecting blame away from him and his own daughter’s failures and their responsibility to take advantage of the educational opportunities provided to them, whether it is online or at a conventional brick and mortar school. Why was this Principle not interviewed to tell their side of the story? Do you really believe this person said that? We are just supposed to take the word a bitter father.

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skok_cush said on November 1, 2011 at 10:39 AM

skok_cush avatar

@ iknowright, Amen. Only thing important to the teachers Unions, is indoctronating them to be in OWS etc.

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iknowright said on November 1, 2011 at 10:29 AM

Thank goodness for school choices! I work for a school district in Washington, my wife teaches in another and I want my child to go to...that's right neither! The chronic stupidity in the school system is quite amazing. I wish we had charter schools here in Washington purely to provide more competition to the public schools. Maybe the "leadership" would wake up and focus on education!

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virtualteacher said on November 1, 2011 at 10:03 AM

@teacher78 - Interestingly, not all virtual schools are employed by "private employees". Even K12 itself has different schools that have different hiring practices. Teachers at K12 supported Washington Virtual Academy are union represented contracted teachers, not private employees. Does it make a difference? Test scores are publicly view-able on the OSPI website, so you can see for yourself. Some online schools give away free computers, while others hire full time contracted and certificated teachers. Which one would you prefer you child go to? Another consideration about pass rates data is that students who fail at one school, are more likely to fail at another school. There are lots of reasons that students fail, and going online isn't going to fix all of those reasons. (some reasons, like distractions, bullying, and slow pace online school can fix) The bottom line is that students and parents are the ones that will ultimately decide the results on the report card.

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bazwest said on November 1, 2011 at 10:00 AM

I have trouble with Chris Ingalls cause & effect analysis. On-line courses are not failing kids simply because kids are failing on-lne courses. On-line schools are an alternative to traditional brick and mortar schools and kids proceed at their own pace. Parents in these situations have to be very involved, because there is not a teacher present. So for Chris Ingalls I would pose a few questions, because his implication is obvious and skewed. Is the on-line course failing because a kid fails (not necessarily). Is the company administering the course a bad company because a kid fails?--(not necessarily) Is the company bad because it makes a profit ?--(not inherently) If the school district splits the money with the on-line company what role should they play?-- (it should play a role at least as significant as does the on-line company). And I would like to see Dr. Wayne Au's evidence that shows that a union worker is an inherently better educator than a non-union worker.

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buddjd said on November 1, 2011 at 9:51 AM

The problem with this story and the father interviewed is that the child involved most likely didn't do the required work. The online school is not for everyone and requires hardwork on the part of the student. We have had no problems with the on-line school offerings or problems getting records from them. If a student has trouble getting work completed in a normal school setting, than leaving them on their own in the on-line environment is a recipe for failure. The issue of large numbers of part-time teachers is not a problem at all. This kind of out of the box thinking scares teachers unions and those who believe the brick and mortar concept is the only way to get a good education. It works for students whose parents are involved. It is also an option for kids the school systems don't want to or don't have the capability to deal with.

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sammyh said on November 1, 2011 at 9:37 AM

Insight has been a blessing for my daughter. She was experiencing continual harassment from others at school causing her not to concentrate on studies. She became fearful of going to school and the principal and counselors did nothing, saying they couldn't focus on all the students and what they were doing. The public schools are doing nothing about the harassment going on inside the classrooms. After looking into Insight, we made the choice to try it. My daughter is now finishing up classes, even though at a slower rate but she's progressing more than she was. She has better self esteem because she doesn't have to worry about the classroom environment, kids is the hallways or before/after school bullying. I now have a happier child and not one that comes home from school crying each day. As a parent, I hear from the Insight counselors and teachers more than I ever did from our previous high school. Thank you Insight for all you do.

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teacher78 said on November 1, 2011 at 9:33 AM

I have a problem with a school that calls itself a public school, uses public tax dollars and state allocated FTE monies – and then the district and the for-profit company hires its teachers as private employees and can pay them private employee salaries. All of the teachers at Insight are “private employees” and are not paid equitable teacher salaries compared to other school district employees in the state - they are paid lower so the company gets the "profit". The new owner, K12, is continuing this. Also, teachers at Insight are not given any salary increases if they earn advanced degrees or continuing credits. If this is a public school as defined by the state – the employees should be state employees. I don’t understand why this hasn’t been watched more closely by OSPI, and WEA. Public schools that use public money should have to hire public employees. Otherwise private companies are making profits off public funds - which I believe is fundamentally wrong.

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Lenee said on November 1, 2011 at 8:52 AM

My son attended Insight year before last, and the year before that. Granted, he always struggled in school, but Insight was a disaster for us. Each semester, only 1 or 2 teachers communicated with me AT ALL, much less on a regular basis. He failed majority of classes, but even the ones that he did ok in, didn't matter, because the won't send any records to his current school. He took the WASL while he was a student at Insight, and there doesn't even seem to be any record of that. For a student that is highly motivated and self disciplined, this may still be a good route, otherwise, unless their new partnerships DRASTICALLY change their system, I would not recommend this school to anyone I know.

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virtualteacher said on November 1, 2011 at 7:33 AM

So the father complains that his little girl is failing at online education after she had failed at 2 other schools and had dropped out? If he was surprised to find this out, why hadn't he been more involved in monitoring her grades and helping her out? Of course the online school is going to encourage her to continue trying because it sounded like she was in a position to recover from her failing grades. I didn't hear what Dad had done to try and help his daughter except complain to the camera. Online education relies on partnerships with parents, or another responsible adult. If you take a failing student and sit them in front of a computer, chances are, online education isn't going to magically fix them. Parents need to be involved in checking grades, motivating students, and making sure that their children know where to go to get help. Just like any school, those students that don't have strong support at home are more likely to fail.

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ahinds said on October 31, 2011 at 11:35 PM

What do they want the school to do? magically give the kids A's? it is the child's and the parent's responsibility to keep up with the work provided, and trust me, if I can go from straight f's in public school, to all A's and B's since then, anyone else can. online school is an awesome privilege that students can have, and it is in their own hands to take advantage of that.

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Boater said on October 31, 2011 at 11:34 PM

Great piece. Interestingly, Apollo Group is a $5B a year business which also owns the ubiquitous University of Phoenix.

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