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Pregnant teen, elderly woman among pepper sprayed at Occupy Seattle

Pregnant teen, elderly woman among pepper sprayed at Occupy Seattle

Occupy Seattle protesters are pepper sprayed near 5th Avenue and Pine, November 15, 2011.

by Associated Press

KING5.com

Posted on November 16, 2011 at 7:30 AM

Updated Wednesday, Nov 16 at 7:32 AM

SEATTLE -- A downtown march and rally in support of the Occupy Wall Street movement turned briefly chaotic Tuesday night as police scattered a crowd of rowdy protesters -- including a pregnant 19-year-old and an 84-year-old activist -- with blasts of pepper spray.
  
Protest organizers denounced the use of force, saying that police indiscriminately sprayed the chemical irritant at peaceful protesters.
  
The Occupy Seattle movement released a written statement late Tuesday expressing support for "a 4-foot 10-inch, 84-year-old woman, a priest and a pregnant woman who as of this writing is still in the hospital."
  
Dorli Rainey is an activist who has supported liberal causes in the Seattle area for decades. A photo showing Rainey being cared for by fellow activists in the immediate aftermath of the police incident appeared on news websites around the world.
  
Seattle police spokesman Jeff Kappel said he didn't have specifics on the Rainey incident, but he said pepper spray is "is not age specific. No more dangerous to someone who is 10 or someone who is 80."
  
He added, that if it were harmful, "we probably wouldn't be using pepper spray if that was the case."
  
Kappel said police had not yet established whether a pregnant woman was involved.
  
Paramedics examined a handful of people, including a 19-year-old woman who was three-months pregnant, Seattle fire department spokesman Kyle Moore said. The Seattle Times reported on its website that the woman was taken by ambulance to Harborview Medical Center.
  
Her identity and status were not immediately available.
  
Moore added that the protester's own medical response team had taken care of others.
  
"These protesters are well organized, they're using homemade remedies to counter pepper spray," he said.
  
Seattle police said plenty of verbal warnings were given to demonstrators attempting to block intersections and streets during rush hour.
  
"Pepper spray was deployed only against subjects who were either refusing a lawful order to disperse or engaging in assaultive behavior toward officers," Kappel wrote on the department's blog.
  
Kappel also noted that one man threw an "unknown liquid" at an officer's face and was arrested. The officer was not injured.
 
In another incident, Kappel said a 17-year-old woman swung a stick at an officer, and as police moved to arrest her, others tried to intervene on her behalf, prompting a blast of pepper spray.
  
Authorities arrested at least six people before quickly restoring order.
  
Occupy Seattle organizers said the downtown march was in solidarity with other Occupy Wall Street protests around the nation.
  
The skirmish Tuesday was the first clash in weeks.
  
Occupy Seattle moved its encampment to Seattle Central Community College late October. Before that, the group had been camping at Westlake Park, leading to tense standoffs with police and dozens of arrests.
 

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Comments: Displaying 1 - 15 of 135

Billy_Jones064 said on November 30, 2011 at 12:37 AM

I'm interested in these alleged "home remedies" for OC spray. I can tell you that no "home remedy" exists other than pouring huge amounts of johnson and johnson no more tear baby shampoo directly on the area that has been covered, including the eyeballs themselves, then "scrubbing" to get the soap to collect the oil.... then wash away as much of the soap as possible and repeat, and that doesn't work for long. The OC will stay on your skin even after the effects are gone.... until it gets wet again, then it will reactivate. The "home remedies" are a lie. I disagree with the idiots in the OWS movement, but the police have started using tazers and OC without reason or justification. Their excuse that it leaves no permanent damage (usually) is bull, because if you turned the table and sprayed someone else without good reason, especially a police officer, you'd be in jail for assault. The same rules should apply in this situation. My opinion, i could be wrong.

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kingsolver1000rr said on November 27, 2011 at 1:43 AM

the prego girl should be brought up on child endangerment charges and have her baby taken from her at birth.

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agarmy said on November 18, 2011 at 5:28 AM

Oh, consuela, I agree. It seemed like many of them knew it would come to pepperspray, if they brought with them their own home remedies against it. It seems like a play on getting their story out, and getting it in their favor, to say that cops peppersprayed a pregnant woman and an octogenerian.

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agarmy said on November 18, 2011 at 5:24 AM

No, they weren't pepper sprayed for not moving fast enough, it's because one idiot teen decided to swing a stick (no report on the size) at a cop, and another threw unidentified liquid in a cops face. That right there can be a felony, attempted murder if it's bodily fluids. Eric, they do get sprayed with that stuff, they have to get sprayed with it before they are able to even use it. But I guess if someone threw some random fluids in your face, you would probably chuckle and give them a handshake, right?

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Eric_Blazer4a3 said on November 17, 2011 at 10:47 PM

Sooo, there were people holding up traffic, and they got hit with pepper spray. Now I understand the OWS folks can be a bit of an annoyance, but causing them physical pain because they wouldn't move fast enough? This is messed up, spray a cop with that stuff and see if you don't get charged with assault. It is assault, and needs to be checked. Anyone who thinks its ok to hit anyone with that stuff, simply for being a slight inconveince no less, needs to set aside time for some personal reflection.

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conseula said on November 17, 2011 at 6:45 PM

What is the saying? "IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE HEAT, GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN." Grandma and the pregnant teen had a choice..Stay home or take a chance on violence of some sorth happening to them..By the police or an out of hand crowd. Apology? I think not..

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_nope_ said on November 17, 2011 at 1:14 PM

@dakotanative There are other videos out besides the one on king5 that show this- although like you said the spray came out when people were actually on the sidewalk. So how does that fit with saying that the only people who got sprayed were those NOT complying with orders? If they were in the street, were told to move, then moved to the sidewalk, doesn't that imply they were following orders? Why still spray those people instead of those that didn't follow? Also, things like peper spray are meant to be used to deal with people who are resisting or otherwise need to be subdued so they can then be taken into custody. People keeps aying things like "you break the law, you get sprayed" or whatever, but no... you break the law, you get arrested! If the problem is that these people were breaking the law, why weren't they charged with anything or arrested? If that was the case and they resisted then I could understand, but just spraying everyone down to herd the crowd is ridiculous

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dakotanative said on November 17, 2011 at 11:24 AM

I don't know how you can say the peaceful protestor were on the sidewalk. The view from above showed all of the people in the road. Maybe not when the spray was deployed, but just prior to it, and any law abiding citizen knows BEFORE the police have to tell them to get out of the road.

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yours_truly said on November 17, 2011 at 8:47 AM

Put a muzzle on the cops.

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josefina said on November 16, 2011 at 11:38 PM

The old lady and the pregnant one were in the crowd blocking the street, telling the cops F-U when they were told to disperse and get out of the street. They asked for and deserved what they got. So did the others who got sprayed. They had no right to block the street or attack the cops. If they keep pushing it, the Governor will have to deploy the National Guard and Occupiers will get shot. Anarchists will reap what they sow.

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Anonymous said on November 16, 2011 at 9:14 PM

Anonymous avatar

Ummm, you play, you pay?

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crankshaft said on November 16, 2011 at 9:03 PM

Should've broken this protest up the first day it started. The mayor McScwinn swings with then wind. Apologizing to them! Give me a freakin' break you one-term mayor major liberal. Thought we couldn't get any worse than Nickels, think again.

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dakotanative said on November 16, 2011 at 8:49 PM

The headline has been modified to read "pregnant teen, grandmother among the radicals pepper sprayed due to unlawful activity".

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pamby said on November 16, 2011 at 8:21 PM

Not all the Occpiers were sitting in the intersection and not all of them were in the street. Most occupiers were yelling at them to get up and get to Westlake and to get on the sidewalk. It only takes a few to make the whole look bad. These are good people in the Occupy. They should be given credit for trying to DO SOMETHING rather than sit at home and complan and insult people. The spraying was done in long sweeps and several people were picked on to be completely soaked. At least one officer was trying to rip off safety glasses and masks off of people while he sprayed. Other reporters were at the march and have video showing a lot more than what has been seen on tv. Police were also spraying these reporters and their equipment to stop their taping, yet police were video taping themselves. It's amazing that so many people were outraged at the assaults not too long ago by police but now it's okay for the police to assault people.

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TruthBtold said on November 16, 2011 at 7:28 PM

If they had gone home as was requested by the police, they wouldn't have been sprayed at all. If you're gonna dance, you have to pay the fiddler.

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debbidy123 said on November 16, 2011 at 7:14 PM

I am sorry for the 84 yr old and pregnant teen that got pepper sprayed. They were blocking the intersection and refused to leave. They were asked and asked by the police and they continued to leave. I for one did not want there for who nows how long and wait to get home. They were told what would happen and they continued to defy the police. What did they think was going to happen? The police were in the right and the protesters were in the wrong. The 84 yr old had no business being out there, in the cold, as old as she was and the pregnant teen needs to stop and think before she puts her baby at risk. It doesn't sound like those two really used good judgement. When is everyone going to learn that nothing like this ever solves anything and it only makes matters worse.

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SamRye said on November 16, 2011 at 6:41 PM

Quidproquote (I like the name), thank you for noticing. I was being somewhat sarcastic. Does that make me somewhat of a sociopath?

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swatguy said on November 16, 2011 at 6:22 PM

Wrong headline, King 5....Try: Unlawful protestors ignore police warnings Duane, I hear you are in line for a position in Mayor McCheese's administration, congrats....

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duanesworld said on November 16, 2011 at 6:02 PM

Armor mounted cops vs peaceful civilians. No contest. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Ah, it is good to be a cop! Seattle is all over the world with the spraying of the little old lady! Ah, it is good to be a cop ....

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aziza said on November 16, 2011 at 5:54 PM

Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat and inconvenienced a lot of people. Those darn black kids caused a huge disturbance and the national guard had to be called in because they had the nerve to disturb a white school. The Boston Tea Party destroyed property by throwing the tea in the bay. Women marched and blocked traffic in order to get the right to vote- 16th Amendment. These things have always been inconvenient. Sorry they have to happen, but we all benefit because they have and do happen.

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_nope_ said on November 16, 2011 at 5:50 PM

@dakotanative, lol what are you talking about?? Your analogies are a mess and don't make any sense... Even the point that you're trying to cobble together there doesn't actually apply, since (despite what all those so eager to gobble up the police PR line on this), video of the pepper spraying actually shows that people were ON THE SIDEWALK, not disobeying any direct order when the pepper spray started flying. You can see one or two people getting up in the cops faces- and while that is totally legal, at least I'd have some understanding if the acts were directed AT those people...but instead they just let lose and spray the whole crowd, when the majority were peaceful and not refusing to comply with anything.

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dakotanative said on November 16, 2011 at 5:42 PM

Right to assemble and right to do whatever you want are two different things. It's like screaming "fire" in a crowded theatre. There has to be limits to protect the rights and safety of all involved. Airplanes should have the right to fly where they want, when they want, nut that could result in some major crashes. Just like the roads are made for cars and the sidewalks for pedestrians. If you get a permit to walk on the road or drive on the sidewalk, there has to be laws and controls in place to prevent a major crash. If not, the authorities have to step in and prevent it, even if a few radicals get hurt.

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kmk2cents said on November 16, 2011 at 5:38 PM

I work at UWMC and we received an email from UW Police stating that the Occupy protestors will be in front of the hospital tomorrow afternoon walking down Pacific St and are stopping at Montlake Bridge. C'mon! They are going to block hospital access to patients. This is getting way out of hand and serves no purpose. Maybe these folks should be looking for jobs instead of littering up the city streets. Just sayin.

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kennyeffnpowers said on November 16, 2011 at 5:37 PM

when the cops say move-- MOVE mutha F R!!

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quidproquote said on November 16, 2011 at 5:33 PM

@samrye I really hope you are being sarcastic. You sound like a sociopath.

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conseula said on November 16, 2011 at 5:18 PM

Right on Shoreline and the rest of you who confirm that people have choices and if they make the wrong choice they get what they deserve.. I am still shaking my head over why a mother to be/pregnant woman would be at Occupy Seattle..I'm sure there is some suspicious history to this woman? 84 year old grandma needs to understand her limitations..AND BEING IN A LARGE GROUP OF PROTESTORS ISN'T WHERE SHE SHOULD BE..iF SHE HAS ANY COMMON SENSE... Like I said, stuff and lick envelopes if you have a cause..the only abuse you could get from doing that is a cut on your tongue/which can be painful :)

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koolaiddrinker said on November 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM

Just taze them fleabaggers bro!

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LAHusky said on November 16, 2011 at 5:12 PM

Hello Seattle : You've given the SPD no choice in the matter of dealing with your demonstration. Every single time there is a demonstration, demonstrators allow anarchist to slither in to create unfettered mayhem. Remember SPD is your brothers and sisters, mother's and father's and your extended family. Do you really believe these humans in their helments and flack jackets are blind, remorseless, evil assailants? Whom do you call when you are assaulted, robbed or raped? Is there a 911B number for your fellow tent dwellers to come to your rescue when you are no longer able to "control" your tent city? It is time to roll up bags and go home. Oh, and I will believe in your movement when you burn your I-phones, turn in your leased BMW's, volunteer 100 or more hrs. a year (as I do) and vote.

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SamRye said on November 16, 2011 at 4:56 PM

Water cannons, we need water cannons. Maybe add a little soap to the water. The pregnant girl should learn that every decision she makes from now on will affect her child. If you're putting yourself around dirty people who are using drugs and going to the bathroom anywhere they want, pepper spray may be the least of your problems. The 84 year old woman, she's lived long enough to know better. Maybe she needs a few dozen cats to take up her spare time. All she needs to do is trip in the crowd and break a hip...and we all know what happens next.

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logic14 said on November 16, 2011 at 4:55 PM

THey give repeated dispersal orders and they have plenty of time to leave. King 5 your are sensationalizing this to teh detriment of society. Be more responsible. The press has a code of ethics, try reading it! and then try to actually follow it!

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 4:37 PM

@shoreline. Well said!!!

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shoreline said on November 16, 2011 at 4:30 PM

The protesters WANT this type of confrontation with the Police. The general public is getting bored with hearing about the occupation of some park. The protesters needed to take it up a notch by now occupying streets and intersections. Where is their respect for all the people who after a long day at work, just want to get home to their families? Protest on the sidewalk or in the park where PEDESTRIANS belong! Commuters have the right to use the roads according to the laws just as much as protesters have the right to peacefully assemble. Good job Seattle PD. As for the pregnant girl and old lady, ZERO sympathy from me. You put yourself in the position to be sprayed and could have easily backed off when the police started moving in and ordering people to disperse. Here come the lawsuits....

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 4:28 PM

@wmdkitty. wow.. talk about stereotyping.

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wmdkitty said on November 16, 2011 at 4:25 PM

More proof that the cops are power-hungry thugs. Biggest gang in town, AND the most violent...

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 4:04 PM

Holy freaking cow, you seriously think it's the police's job to REROUTE TRAFFIC to accommodate protesters who don't want to follow the law? Maybe they should be responsible for bringing them milk and cookies while they're at it. Come on, get a grip.

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_nope_ said on November 16, 2011 at 4:01 PM

@collegeguy if you think the action police have taken not just here, but all across the country and around the world, only fits in the category of "just doing their jobs" then you really haven't been paying much attention to the reports and actual video footage that's been put out all over the place. If you choose not to pay attention and just take the word of what they say to defend themselves in mainstream media, I guess that's fine, but don't expect everyone else will... Right here is a message from one of their own that has condemned their actions as well collapsenet.com/free-resources/collapsenet-public-access/item/4774-a-message-to-all-police-officers-from-occupy-wall-street On top of there being better ways to 'herd' a croud, the fact is that contrary to how some people try to make it sound, the people who were sprayed were NOT all people who were in the street, breaking any law, or infringing on the rights of anyone else.

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conseula said on November 16, 2011 at 3:40 PM

I can't believe and am trying to understand why a PREGNANT WOMAN would jeopradize herself and HER BABY by attending Occupy Seattle well knowing that it could be unsafe for both of them??? She can't be a very responsible person because at this point in time her child should be her No. 1 concern! If I were 84, I sure wouldn't be going into Seattle to participate in Occupy Seattle..wouldn't take much to knock a poor old lady over and get trampled to death..I think her place is at the voting polls..Know it would be mine..Or stuffing and licking envelopes. As far as the Priest..I'd like to know if this person was truly a Priest or just dressed like one to fool the police?

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collegeguy said on November 16, 2011 at 3:04 PM

@angusr and intrepid. While people do have the right to gather, their right to gather IN NO MEANS supercedes the rights of others as well and when ordered to disperse, they need to comply. Don't blame this on the police who are just doing their jobs. The Occupiers where the ones who brought this on themselves. by not complying with orders from the police. They brought this on themselves and got what they deserved. If they are purposedly moving into the street to block traffic, they are performing an illegal action and are putting themselves at risk of being hit by cars and buses. Have you seen how the metro bus drivers in downtown drive? They are just as bad or worse than taxi drivers.

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Maxium said on November 16, 2011 at 3:02 PM

Why didnt the protestors stop/beat up the girl who swung a stick at the officers? At least then the police wouldnt be to blame and the protesters would keep from being looked at like a bunch of violent deadbeats. Not that I look at them that way but some people do.

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Akogot said on November 16, 2011 at 2:56 PM

@seatownbadger pls tell me then why u have been OCed those 25 times and at what contamination lvl............

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 2:52 PM

@intrepid1---my thoughts exactly!!! There are much better ways of handling peaceful assembly than violence that can really hurt people! Re-route the traffic instead of acting with violence. SPD has done it during Occupy activities before (2 weeks ago). Why not again?

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kingster said on November 16, 2011 at 2:49 PM

They may have been non-violent but they were disrupting traffic and refused to move. I don't condone the use of pepper spray on people who are not violent and maybe a better way could have been used to get people out of the intersection. There could have been a much worse incident if someone in the crowd had pulled a gun to fire at police. That is where this is headed if people don't start using their heads, INCLUDING the police.

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 2:45 PM

@ AgnusR and quidproquote. I'm not saying that people should disperse or that they don't have a right to be out there. I'm not saying that police should use force to disperse a peaceful crowd. I sure that some cops overstep the line when it comes to peaceful protests. I'm saying that if you want to protest do it in a lawful manner stay out of the streets so you don't get hit by car who is too distracted by the protest to pay attention to their driving. Pepper spray is not supposed to be pleasant. It is a way to deter someone in a way that is not overly violent. Pepper spray does have some inherent risks, just like everything else does. Compared to the other tactics employed by the police it is considered by the majority to be a less lethal form of force. @AgnusR. Just because I have a different opinion does not give you permission to imply that I am stupid or that I can't follow a conversation. I sorry that you cannot have a reasonable conversation and felt the need to be rude.

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quidproquote said on November 16, 2011 at 2:45 PM

@silverado The homeless do that all the time due to lack of access to bathrooms at night. Even if that is true, how does that warrant the pepperspraying of people who had nothing to do with deficating on the street. You can't blame a whole movement for the action of one.

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intrepid1 said on November 16, 2011 at 2:29 PM

Protesters pepper sprayed for "...attempting to block intersections and streets during rush hour." Here's an idea for the SPD - RE-ROUTE THE TRAFFIC. Oh, wait, that requires wanting to avoid confrontation and violence. Much easier just to pepper spray peaceful demonstrators.

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silverado said on November 16, 2011 at 2:26 PM

Google Occupy Seattle protestor deficates on Seattle public street.

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 2:13 PM

@drose111-- I don't see a danger to protestors when they move en-masse out into the streets--which is what warranted the police action...correct?--To say that they are becoming a danger to themselves is...kinda ridiculous. Because it wasn't a very good justification for police force and not really up to par for the conversation you're having trouble following--I chose to ignore it. The ascertation you're making that pepper spray is minimal force when it's been well documented that there are very real and life-threatening consequences for the people that it is used on is also kinda...not up to par.

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quidproquote said on November 16, 2011 at 2:05 PM

Have you ever been pepper sprayed? I have when I was playing with my mom's mace when I was younger. She was a police officer. It's a pretty horrible experience. I walked by this group of people when they were protesting, they were peaceful and calm. To have cops pepper spray them because they won't disperse is pretty sad. You know, that is why the boston massacre happened - a crowd wouldn't disperse. The police presense through this whole protest has been completely unwarranted. There has been no violence and only once out of the last 2 months has there been any vandalism. The police are there purely to stifle the protester's first amendment rights.

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kss123 said on November 16, 2011 at 2:01 PM

Agnus, where exactly in the 1st Ammendment does it say that they have the right to be in the way of others? Where does it say they have the right to restrict the rights of others to use the roads? They may peacefully assemble, but where is it that they have the right to intrude on others rights?

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 1:56 PM

@ quidproquote. Compared to police reactions around the nation to the Occupy Movement, I would hazard to say that SPD has shown quite a bit of restraint. Please feel free to "educate" me if you feel otherwise.

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 1:53 PM

@jiminycricket-- _nope_ summed up what has been accomplished thus far--which is visibility and conversation about the gross inequalities nearly all the population are enduring while the very richest continue to exploit, lie and take a bigger and bigger portion of the worlds wealth. We haven't touched on the issues at the core of the Occupy protests because we've been addressing 1st amendment rights and how they relate to police action--So far, the protestors have been successful by being visible and in the way--the thing that our first Amendment guarantees us the right to be when in the course of pubic speech. I hope, more than anything, that more is accomplished to address the grievances directly, but that remains to be seen in the future. But things are looking good. First they IGNORE you. Then, the LAUGH at you. Then they FIGHT you. Then you WIN. I'm paraphrasing, but its getting close to the last part. :-)

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quidproquote said on November 16, 2011 at 1:52 PM

Wow, There are alot of fascists here. To blindly support the police when they are "subduing" a group of people practicing their first amendment right of assemly and speech is really sad. Disperse citizens, nothing to see here!

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 1:50 PM

@AgnusR. I wasn't saying that you need to change your opinion but acknowledging some of their valid points may make them take your opinions a bit more seriously. Some of your comments sound a bit like rants and I, personally, find ranting hard to take seriously. Well thought out answers and explanations are what I enjoy reading (like your last post addressing me). I didn't and don't mean to offend or attack you but I will point out that you seem to have a slightly off-topic answer for all of the statement made by opposing views. Your reply didn't even address the first portion of my post asking how you thought no one was in danger when protesters were moving into the streets becoming dangers to themselves and others. You said that the police are there to keep people safe so that they can protest. How can using minimal force tactic (pepper spray) to keep protesters out of the streets be considered outrageous?

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_nope_ said on November 16, 2011 at 1:35 PM

@jiminycricket- I think it's supposed to accomplish exactly what it has so far...getting people around the world to take notice of a collective voice from a LARGE number of people that share real concerns whether others agree with them or not. Funny that history keeps repeating itself, and those in power never seem to realize that that when they lash out using violence and intimidation to stamp out movements like this, it only backfires and helps their cause. You can say that comparing this to protests or actions from the civil rights movement is comparing apples to oranges, but it's really not...people used the same tired excuses then to try and justify violence against peaceful protesters.

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seatownbadger said on November 16, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Akogot you have no clue what you are talking about. Pepper spray does not cause 3rd degree burns. I am a light skinned person, and in the military I was exposed to pepper spray probably 25 times with some of those exposures were direct sprays in my eyes, and face for training. Yes it hurts, but if you listen to the police and dispurse when they tell you to you wont get sprayed. I do support peaceful protests, but blocking traffic or breaking the laws is not nor will it ever be a peaceful protest. Follow the rules, and you wont get sprayed.

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Akogot said on November 16, 2011 at 1:28 PM

10.3.2.2 Riot Control Agents. historyDOTnavyDOTmil/library/online/nwp9_commanderhandDOThtm FIx url

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 1:27 PM

Agnus, you also brought up Fred Phelps. Not that it relates to teargassing, but Phelps is a perfect example of why I just can't work up any respect for this Occupy movement. When the Supreme Court ruled that Phelps had the right to protest funerals, people in a number of states went to work and changed the law so that now there are buffer zones that Phelps and his nutbag followers have to respect. THAT'S how you make a difference. I just flat don't get what sitting around in a tent, or standing around blocking traffic, is supposed to accomplish. It seems like the laziest way possible of trying to effect change in society.

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 1:25 PM

@jiminycricket--the protests are being advertised and promoted so that others can attend--so, while I might be comparing apples to oranges--I am still comparing fruits (go ahead and joke, I'm snickering too)-- there are still similarities that need to be considered. If you consider pepper spray an acceptable means of control--that is your consideration to make. But I do ask, where the line is. Knowing that there are vulnerable persons in the crowd, what is an acceptable level of danger you're willing to subject people to when they are acting within their rights though maybe blurring the lines of etiquette?

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Akogot said on November 16, 2011 at 1:24 PM

pepper spray is never ok to just move a crowd. If a light skinned person gets hit they can have third degree burns in the contact area.

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_nope_ said on November 16, 2011 at 1:19 PM

w w w collapsenet.com/free-resources/collapsenet-public-access/item/4774-a-message-to-all-police-officers-from-occupy-wall-street

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 1:16 PM

@drose111--I'm having a dialog with two other commentators of dissenting opinions. We're outlining and backing up our opinions as you would in a conversation--the thing this comments section is outlined to do. I have my opinion, that the SPD acted wrongly and deployed an un-needed amount of aggression that endangered the more "delicate" persons in our society. Eadnx and jiminycricket are defending their points as well. And, while I see, and respect their viewpoints, I am not obligated to change my mind simply because there's is different than mine. Nor are they obligated to change there's. However--all parties concerned are expected to listen to and consider each opinion before proceeding with their rebuttal. If you follow the conversation we've been having, you can see the progression that's been taking place.

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 1:13 PM

Agnus, you're comparing apples with oranges. The bus boycotts, the restaurant sit-ins, the Freedom Rides, and most of the other activities of the Civil Rights era did not interfere with anyone else's rights. (Boycotters never BLOCKED people from riding the buses if they wanted to.) You have legal or moral right to block traffic on a whim. Parades and events -- including the marches of the '60 -- are announced and advertised, so people can plan accordingly. In the specific case of the protesters last night, I think bean bags, rubber bullets, etc., would have been gross overkill unless the crowd was rioting, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with police using pepper spray to push back a crowd that refuses to follow orders to obey the law. Same with the people camping out in parks in Portland and Oakland. You have the right to protest, but not to illegally pitch a tent in a park just because you want .. well, whatever it is you want. I'm hoping someday they'll tell us.

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taylorwood said on November 16, 2011 at 1:12 PM

Citizens who abide by the law don't get pepper sprayed. These unruly anarchists are bringing this all upon themselves.

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_nope_ said on November 16, 2011 at 1:11 PM

for those supporting this, how exactly was the 84 year old woman posing a danger to anyone that couldn't be resolved by anything other than pepper spray? This menace to society couldn't have been subdued any other way huh?

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 1:07 PM

@AgnusR. "No one was in any danger until the SPD began to act." The world does not stop for a protest. People have to work. They have to use roads to get there. From what I have heard, protesters were moving into the streets. How is no one in danger? ---- It sounds like you are unwilling to even consider any other side to this than the one that supports your opinion. These message boards allow people to not only express their opinions but have a dialog that helps to expand individual perceptions and see things from an opposing view.

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jackwong4ever said on November 16, 2011 at 12:50 PM

Mayor needs to be recalled for this

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vffrwm said on November 16, 2011 at 12:41 PM

Pepper the heck out of them and then put them in jail. Enough of this garbage.

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 12:40 PM

@jiminycricket--Fred Phelps is allowed to cause severe emotional trauma and pain in his protests. And that has been upheld by the Supreme Court. The Montgomery Bus Boycott is a point of pride in our nations history. The harassment of women entering abortion clinics, Cancer Walks for charity causes, Easter Parades--all of these actions disrupt the everyday to-and-fro of normal, non-participants activities and have been accepted by our nation. These are our precedents. Held up both by law and by social practice. The protestors have a right to be in the streets because they are acting, in a large group to speak out and take community action. So, no, there aren't any court rulings that allow citizens to break the law. But there are laws in place to allow citizens the right to gather and speak and act in a public space, even when that right infringes on the people that encounter thems right to an event-free afternoon.

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drose111 said on November 16, 2011 at 12:38 PM

I don't think I have ever seen this much support for SPD on the King5 comment boards. I think that the police response has been fairly reasonable. Pepper spray for these "minor infractions" is much better than an officer trying to forcibly wrestle someone to the ground with what could be considered a mob surrounding them. "In another incident, Kappel said a 17-year-old woman swung a stick at an officer, and as police moved to arrest her, others tried to intervene on her behalf, prompting a blast of pepper spray." SPD has done a pretty good job of trying to keep things between police and protesters relatively peaceful. "The skirmish Tuesday was the first clash in weeks." Under the law that allows citizens to gather and protest, it stipulates that the protesters must follow the law. When citizens don't follow the law, police must step in.

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WaterGirl said on November 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM

Have any of you been stuck in downtown during a protest? I have been stuck on a bus for 2-3 hours before. While I am sympathetic with the cause, it does not build public support in those stuck in the traffic jam. Why not let more people see them as they drive by than make people made at them for blocking traffic. The police needed to do something to free up the streets.

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM

Oh please, there aren't any court rulings allowing citizens to break the law. Some colleges and municipalities might have tolerated them, but there's no requirement they have to. Regarding the 17-year-old, they TRIED to arrest her. Didn't you read the report? " In another incident, Kappel said a 17-year-old woman swung a stick at an officer, and as police moved to arrest her, others tried to intervene on her behalf, prompting a blast of pepper spray."

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM

@eadnx--the protestors have been very good at policing themselves prior to this escalation. It is the SPD's job to make sure that everyone involved in kept safe and able to protest. It is NOT their job to start deploying force and chemical weapons against anyone they come across when a small percentage begin to act out of order. It is terrible that as citizen, you are thankful that rubber bullets "or worse" weren't employed--because that means those tactics are edging their way into acceptability. When you take away the tiniest voice in an attempt to "maintain order", you're threatening to silence the whole. Pepper Spray, Tear Gas, and Rubber Bullets and Billy Clubs are NOT acceptable means of engagement when the majority of the group is behaving acceptably and working to maintain a level on non-violence. It takes time and patience to deal with large groups of people--and the SPD needs to be aware of, and respect that fact. No one was in any danger until the SPD began to act.

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dakotanative said on November 16, 2011 at 12:16 PM

So, exactly what are the police supposed to do when protestor are pushing senior citizens down stairs and blocking the streets? What should they do when the protest blocks the little business from getting any customers? What should happen when felons with guns and child molestors are par of the group, and other protestor attackbthe police trying to remove these scumballs? At what point are the police allowed to act in your fantasy world? Perhaps the citizen militia needs to take over. Don't think pepper spray would be the choice or weapons. Don't think there would be a disobedience problem either. No one cares if you protest as long as you obey the laws. But that is the problem. Nobody cares, so you have to be thugs to get any attention.

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eadnx said on November 16, 2011 at 12:14 PM

AgnusR, the woman swinging the stick had supporters against the police. It was not one-on-one. It was rush hour and New York already set the precedent of protesting from the sidewalks only. What you're saying is that you think the use of pepper spray was too much of a response. I don't. At least the police weren't using bullets or worse, but the protesters apparently felt free to throw things at the police. What level of force would you suggest to immediately control a situation, but still leave everybody alive?

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 12:05 PM

@ jiminycricket--what I said directly addresses what you had to say. I am having an issue with the level of force being used for relatively minor offenses. The precedent of protests in our country has already established sit-ins and other methods to blockade the "business as usual" a valid exercise of political speech. Taking that fact into account, the violent actions by the SPD in retaliation is unwarranted and extreme. From what I understand, the main justification was another protestor swinging a stick at the police--something that can be dealt with by taking action against that single person. The indiscriminate and endangerment of the protestors in general is not an acceptable method of engangement. End of Story.

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jonjuan said on November 16, 2011 at 12:02 PM

If you don't have more brains than that at 84 oh well.

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 11:57 AM

Agnus, I don't see how anything you said refutes anything I said, unless you seriously think protesters should be allowed to do whatever they want, regardless of whether or not it's legal. That would be pretty stupid precedent for police to set, don't you think?

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chuckstr76 said on November 16, 2011 at 11:50 AM

Seems a few people in the wrong place at the wrong time.....or not.

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joejoe12 said on November 16, 2011 at 11:50 AM

If you attend a protest, you need to be prepared for the consequences. If you behave with disorderly conduct and/or don't disburse as requested by the authorities - that is definitely your choice - but there are consequences for your choice. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen - ie..don't protest if you aren't willing and/or able for the fallout. Being elderly, pregnant, black, white or whatever is not the issue - they either shouldn't have been there or they should have moved to the sidewalk.

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Steve_Cardindd7 said on November 16, 2011 at 11:50 AM

I find it amazing that the same people that hate socialism are totally cool with a police state. Let me get this straight universal health care=bad. Unnecessary force=good (as long as the force is against people I don't like.)

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thinkthencomment said on November 16, 2011 at 11:46 AM

The police are just doing their job as directed, they have families and they are in the 99%. King5 should be ashamed for villifying those people who act as civil servants to restore order. I watched someone lob a water bottle at the line-up of police live as reported by 'SkyKing'... why isnt that mentioned in this story? Terrible reporting. King5 should remove this from their website and issue an apology to SPD.

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Sir_Real said on November 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM

Google: Tea Party Leader Charged With Child-Rape And Grenade Launcher Possession

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Sir_Real said on November 16, 2011 at 11:44 AM

Google: Top Tea Party organizer arrested for soliciting prostitute.

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM

@jiminycricket--Them being there WAS exercising their right. You have to ask yourself--do you think that just for "illegally blocking the streets" is something that warrants pepper spray? I dont. And the fact that people in this comments section do is where I have my problem.

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eadnx said on November 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM

AngusR, jiminycricket made my point. The protesters can march all they want, but on the sidewalks, not the streets. There's still a certain civility to civil disobedience and as another commenter remarked before: at least the police weren't using bullets.

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senormoofer said on November 16, 2011 at 11:39 AM

No offense, but the picture I saw on CNN of the "pregnant" teen, just looked like a kid with a muffin top. What was she, 2 days pregnant?

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skippypotpiebaby said on November 16, 2011 at 11:39 AM

My eyes my eyes oh god my eyes

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comiccon2010 said on November 16, 2011 at 11:26 AM

get your own big can of pepper spray and spray them back. they viola people rightstime to stand up for the real amaerican people before this country goes down the crapper

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 11:22 AM

Agnus, who in here was suggesting they didn't have the right to protest? They didn't get pepper-sprayed for exercising their rights, they got it for defying police orders to stop illegally blocking streets. Can't you see the difference?

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 11:19 AM

@eadnx--the fact that people are in the streets does not give police the power to start employing such aggressive tactics against them. There is a fine line between "crowd control" and a polis waging war against it's own populace. The indiscriminate and often targeted use of such heavy-handed actions is threatening to cross that line. And seeing people shrug, laugh, blame the victims and then go on with their day is disconcerting to anyone who paid attention in their history and lit classes.

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meagarth said on November 16, 2011 at 11:17 AM

Shouldn't have been there...

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freemonttroll said on November 16, 2011 at 11:12 AM

I can appreciate people who stand up for what they believe, even if I don't agree with the cause. In no way do I think they are morons or do I think they got what they deserve. What I do think is that they knew that the police would eventually take action beyond diplomacy; they were prepared for that and not afraid to back down. To me, that's admirable.

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eadnx said on November 16, 2011 at 11:12 AM

To AgnusR: I've seen the pictures and what I saw was a group of protesters attempting to block streets during rush hour. They were, as the article said, well-organized for resistance to pepper spray and should have only been on the sidewalk in any case. If you're going to play with fire, you will get burnt.

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AgnusR said on November 16, 2011 at 11:07 AM

The idea that people here are blaming the victims for even taking part in the protest is abhorrent. The pregnant and elderly don't give up their rights to free speech and assembly, or any rights of citizenship, when they become elderly or pregnant. Conversly, the police are not automatically given the power and right to assault private citizens in the course of their duties. If you haven't seen the pictures and videos of police attacking the unarmed and still-cooperative protestors, you've been living under a rock. If you think our civil servants should be given a free hand to attack and wound our most fragile, or our strongest, you need to rethink your humanity. They have the right to be there and remain there unharmed. And we, as Americans, have an Obligation to Protect those exercising that Right.

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clothyard said on November 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM

Not a lot of sympathy here for anyone at those "demonstrations" (more like mob semi riots) who get sprayed. All they have to do is NOT GO THERE. Media loves to fawn over these members of the "Entitled " who think the government is supposed to support and protect them, cradle to grave to the extent of housing. big screen tv, video game consoles. a car, or at the very least free transportation, all while they the "entitled" don't provide one ounce of production to support their needs. Mayors and Police departments need to start doing their jobs. Clean up the cities, move the mobs out and restore the downtowns to what they are supposed to be.

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Kim62 said on November 16, 2011 at 11:03 AM

It sounds like the Occupy Movement would like it much better if the police announced that if you do not move off of the street and stop blocking traffic we will leave and let you do whatever you want.

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bbarber1 said on November 16, 2011 at 11:03 AM

I agree with kanajune, why King5 are you all trying to trump up support for the Occupy movement? Thier costing the working middle class (the real 99%) tons of our hard earned tax payer money! Your liberal bias is showing when you should just be covering the news! As for the poor little old lady and the knocked up teen, listen when your told to move by the police and you simply will not get pepppered! Real simple!!

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 10:54 AM

It's amazing how much Wall Street and corporate America has changed since people started camping in city parks.

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fwkc63 said on November 16, 2011 at 10:48 AM

@rite2post - She isn't a pregnant "woman"...she is a pregnant TEEN. Therefore, I'm pretty sure there is not supportive father hanging around. Sorry granny....you and miss prego got what you deserved!! You were warned several times so if you're stupid enough to not do as your told, then you got what was coming to you!MORONS!!

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deepsee said on November 16, 2011 at 10:47 AM

Two words: Mob Mentality

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rite2post said on November 16, 2011 at 10:40 AM

Where is that pregnant's woman's husband. If that was my wife she would get an ear full when I get home. Endangering our unborn child is not acceptable. Stay clear of any harms.

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ghtims said on November 16, 2011 at 10:37 AM

If she's pregnant maybe a demonstration with police is not the approrpraite placed for her to be if shes so concerned about pepper spray. Charge her with child endangerment !

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Sir_Real said on November 16, 2011 at 10:37 AM

Couchbull, you make a good point. It would make great video to pepper spray anti-abortionists outside a clinic or that Tea Party lady in Clarkston who stated she wanted to kill our US senator.

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jiminycricket said on November 16, 2011 at 10:27 AM

if you're an elderly person or a pregnant teenager, then maybe being in the front line defying a police order isn't the smartest thing for you to do.

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alki50 said on November 16, 2011 at 10:14 AM

I have always followed police instructions and have never been pepper-sprayed. Funny how that works....

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joseph3286673730 said on November 16, 2011 at 10:10 AM

They shouldn't have been there.............When the police say they will spray--they mean it --leave !!

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plungginalong said on November 16, 2011 at 10:04 AM

I'm not crying any tears for them and they may have some right ideas, but maybe going about it the wrong way.

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emptynestr said on November 16, 2011 at 10:02 AM

I have a hard time feeling sorry for these two since they CHOSE to be there in the first place. That is part of the risk they take in being there. No sympathy from here.

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whatsyurbeef said on November 16, 2011 at 9:59 AM

When you are warned and warned again of what's to come and you still don't obey the rules, you have yourself to blame.. It's called personal responsibility it applies to corrupt financial institutions as well as demonstrators. You would'nt want the law to discriminate would ya ? well would Ya ?

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496bb said on November 16, 2011 at 9:58 AM

Sit on the beach long enough you're sure to get wet...

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Anonymous said on November 16, 2011 at 9:45 AM

They provoked a fight and got exactly what they deserved. I'm especially glad to know those "homemade remedies" provide little relief. Occupy Seattle are a bunch of hobo dirtbags.

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kanajune said on November 16, 2011 at 9:43 AM

While I am sorry for the victim's suffering (pepper spray is a truly awful experience) I must ask myself.......why are these articles trying to paint this in the most dramatic and sympathy-inducing way? For of course, protestors put themselves in harms way when they choose civil disobedience. That's why the vast majority of us stay home and watch. "a 4-foot 10-inch, 84-year-old woman, a priest and a pregnant woman who as of this writing is still in the hospital." Well, unless they were completely innocent bystanders, they caused their own injuries. I am sympathetic to their cause, for it is the cause of the vast majority of the middle class. I disagree with their methods, however.

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couchbull said on November 16, 2011 at 9:27 AM

For all of you feeling sorry for the protesters let me ask you - would you be singing the same tune if it were Tea-Partiers? Or Pro-lifers? Or would you say "Of course they got pepper-sprayed - they weren't just assembling they were disturbing the peace." It's pretty easy to say that everyone should just suck it up and put up with the inconvenience of people acting like idiots if it is for a cause you support. But I guarantee you'd be saying "Take 'em down!" if you didn't support their cause. (disclosure: I support health care for all, more corporate responsibility and less corruption in government but I think the Occupiers are just as big of wingnuts as the Tea Party) And by the way "freedom of assembly" does not mean blocking traffic and putting regular folks at risk because you are acting like an idiot - no matter what your cause is. That's just rude and obviously would result in something along the lines of pepper spray, arrests and the like.

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spacedover said on November 16, 2011 at 9:24 AM

My take is don't have children or give up protesting duh.

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dixiedog said on November 16, 2011 at 9:20 AM

Well I guess you can be elderly, a priest or pregnant and an anarchist as well.

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tabithastevens said on November 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM

Gee, King5. Biased much? One should NEVER be able to tell the headliner writer's politics based on the headline he/she writes. In the case of this story, the headliner writer FAILED.

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quenz said on November 16, 2011 at 8:58 AM

The photographer and the reporters clearly lack courage. Covering this story means reporting on both sides. Photos of the backs of police is not news.

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Sparrow said on November 16, 2011 at 8:42 AM

I don't what they were expecting, attending an event like that.

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dannyray said on November 16, 2011 at 8:40 AM

Well, I hope the pregnant woman and the elderly person get better so that the Occupy Anachists can use them as fops for their next "let's get publicicity and sympathy " scam. This whole article is so typical of the AP liberal media bias charactierizing violent protestors as "rowdy"-such a lovely euphemism; I am surprised they didn't use the work "passionate". Of course, the title of the article is intended to be incendiary and evoke sympathy-reflective of the worst kind of shoddy and biased journalism. These are people hell bent on disrupting civilized society and destroying this country. They are also people who are unable to face consequences of their own actions and care nothing about law-abiding citizens. Any means, in their view, justifies the end-including putting a naive and stupid pregant woman and senile old person at risk.

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jasonj said on November 16, 2011 at 8:34 AM

Good for the SPD!!! As others have noted, most of these leaches on society have no idea what they're protesting. If the 1% or 53% of taxpayers stop spending the protesters "right/benefits/welfare" are gone. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. I would also recommend napalm if pepper spray doesn't work.

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bigblue1518 said on November 16, 2011 at 8:30 AM

pixelater nailed it. Keep up the good work SPD.

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bumpus said on November 16, 2011 at 8:29 AM

the teen and elderly probably dont even know what they are protesting about anyway just like the other 95% of people just loitering around because they simply have nothing better to do, or place to go!!! Simple solution = Go get a job!!!

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tugthug said on November 16, 2011 at 8:29 AM

It amazes me that when people get stupid they blame the cops. It's one thing to exercise your rights, It's another to be stupid in exercising them by breaking the law and taking on the cops. You get what you get!

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bazwest said on November 16, 2011 at 8:27 AM

I am grateful I live in a country where the police use pepper spray instead of bullets on protestors. I am grateful that I live in a country where people who are arrested don't vanish; never to be seen or heard from again. I am grateful I live in a country where people can choose to protest peacefully and occasionally they accomplish great things. Shame on these protestors who are not really protesting, but rather are engaging in civil disobedience. I am sorry that a priest, a pregnant woman, and an old lady were pepper sprayed, but they made the conscious choice to be in a place where they were likely to be sprayed. It was their choice not to follow police instructions.

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slappywag said on November 16, 2011 at 8:26 AM

"Haw haw!"

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longboardgurl said on November 16, 2011 at 8:22 AM

I am happy to see people supporting the police in this. Its sad that the "Peaceful Protest" comes to this. But, they knew what they were doing and the police are doing they're job.

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SMHATYOU said on November 16, 2011 at 8:21 AM

Sorry, but if I was pregnant OR 80 years old, i would have kept my behind at home. Why put yourself in this situation?? Was the police supposed to not use force because of them? Get over it. Should have used better judgement..

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Livingdalife17 said on November 16, 2011 at 8:12 AM

King5, you are so stupid for putting the nonsense about the elderly female and pregnant teen in your title. Who cares who was sprayed. The point is they were all given verbal warnings that they would be sprayed if they didn't move. Well, they didn't move so good for the police for spraying them!

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renesta said on November 16, 2011 at 8:06 AM

renesta avatar

Waaaa....maybe they should have thought if the consequences before heading to the Occutard movement!

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aziza said on November 16, 2011 at 8:01 AM

Who needs those pesky rights guaranteed to us, the right to assembly and freedom of speech. They are very outdated and inconvenient.

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hewhoo said on November 16, 2011 at 7:53 AM

The elderly and pregnant who were not blocking the street or intersections didn't get sprayed. Doh!

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flyinggaff said on November 16, 2011 at 7:53 AM

Good for the cops! I appreciate them protecting the rights of non protesters to use public property.

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stryker said on November 16, 2011 at 7:49 AM

LOL. Losers. They should sell tickets. Really, I'd pay to go pepper spray them myself.

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freedomfrank said on November 16, 2011 at 7:41 AM

Don't want to get pepper sprayed, follow the orders of the police right? Thats the theme here in Washington,, do what your told and no one gets hurt.

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pixelater said on November 16, 2011 at 7:38 AM

When you lay down with dogs you get fleas.

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