McGinn planning bicycle summit

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 19, 2011 at 1:57 PM

In addition in all challenging situations the only one getting hurt will be the cyclist. So, logic would tell me that the cyclists might want to think twice before challenging a care or practicing reckless and illegal behavior unless they are on a suicide mission... it will never workout in the cyclists favor. I own a motorcycle too and I know on several occasions with near accidents that were from drivers not paying attention. I am lucky I have not lost any skin at this point!

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 19, 2011 at 1:52 PM

Just for clarification: I am fine with sharing the road with bicycles as long as they follow the laws. When bicycles pass me on the right with no bike lane, no effort to signal, runs red lights, weaves between traffic, or hogs the road and impedes traffic, or rides to the front of the intersection with no bike lane. I tend to get a bit frustrated as it is a huge liability as they are ALL ILLEGAL practices. I am not blaming all bicyclists who are really making their best effort to be accommodating nor am I blaming the drivers who are making their best effort to be vigilant and share the road while being safe. The use of our roadways is not a "Right" it is a "privilege". Cars and bicyclist I know can both challenge each other, however, the reality of it is more likely than not when one of them is breaking the law whether they know it or not. Unfortunately, in these situations I notice reckless bicyclists more than ever riding in the manner I explained above, but not all.

cyclefoo said on September 19, 2011 at 11:44 AM

jeffjsea30201750 - I probably missed your point because it's been a little hard to follow in this thread : ) What I do agree with you on is your last post about following the rules. I'll do my best! And I don't need any "extra special" rights; I am fine with the ones the state already gives me to ride on the public roads alongside you and your car. Happy motoring : )

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 19, 2011 at 9:17 AM

Again, you are missing the point and I am going to make my last comment and let you have the floor to rant and cry about why you need "extra special" rights for your your bicycle commute. What I would recommend for your is to follow the laws as I do. 1. Stop running red lights. 2. uses hand signals. 3. Stay off the sidewalk. 4. do not weave between traffic. I am listing these because I see multiple bicyclists do this everyday of the week putting ME in a liable situation. Now as for cars they need to follow the laws as well as I see your typical speeder, no signals, tailgating, and the list goes on. I wish I have the time in the day and the safety element to rationalize a bicycle as a logical means of transportation. There just is not any safety aspects built into a bicycle myself amongst the majority of the population understand this and are not willing to take the risk of a collision with a vehicle that out-weighs me and expect to evade serious injury or death.

cyclefoo said on September 18, 2011 at 4:39 PM

jeffjsea30201750: If by "research statistics like I have" you mean spending three minutes on the internet and copying the fist block of content with data that I like ... I already did that when I posted the RCWs. Let's see if I understand your argument: Cars and bikes both have the legal right to share the road; but cyclists are more likely to be killed in a collision with a car than the other way around (or they cause more congestion than cars); therefore, to reduce the danger to cyclists and make sure jeffjsea30201750 gets to work on time, cyclists should be banned from the roadway and/or forced to pay a governmental fee. Is that your basic argument? Wouldn't taking the cars off the road also solve your argument? Har! Neither I nor any of the cyclists I know supports that; we just want our right to share the road respected. Ironic observation: if there were no cars, not only might those 784 cyclists still be with us, but so might the 33,041 motorists/passengers killed in 2005.

tandnreddy said on September 18, 2011 at 1:11 PM

Useless statistics

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 17, 2011 at 12:32 AM

A quote from a Washington State bicycle study: The report notes that 60% of bicycle fatalities between 1999 and 2006 occurred in urban areas. The locations and actions of bicyclists in those fatalities are charted, but without assessing whether the motorist or bicycle rider was at fault. Actions of bicyclists in fatalities Crossing roadway - 35% Riding with traffic - 27% Riding against traffic - 11% Cyclist turned into path of vehicle - 10% Fell into traffic - 1% All other actions - 7% Unknown - 9% The report does explain that "riding with traffic" includes cases where a motorist was following too closely, drivers were exceeding safe speeds, and cyclists were doored. Amazingly, the "cyclist turned into path of vehicle" is not paired with a "vehicle turned into path of cyclist" statistic.

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 17, 2011 at 12:23 AM

So we'll compare risk at both the 6.2 billion and 21 billion miles traveled levels. 784 cyclists died in 2005. That would make the death rate 0.37 to 1.26 deaths per 10 million miles. 33,041 motorists/passengers died from 3 trillion miles traveled, making their death rate 0.11 per 10 million miles traveled. So cyclists are either 3.4x or 11.5x as likely to die as motorists, per passenger mile. Neither conclusion is very happy. However, all these figures include people who ride dangerously, such as against traffic, at night without lights, on sidewalks, or through red lights/stop signs without adequately checking cross-traffic. A study in Washington State found that 11% cycling fatalities involved wrong-way riding. Subtracting out 11% of the nationwide deaths, we find that cyclists who don't ride against traffic are 3x to 10.2x more likely to get killed than motorists, which is better, but still bad.

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 17, 2011 at 12:22 AM

Maybe you should research statistics like I have and maybe you should learn from the ticket you just received for running the red light like many other bike riders like you.... moron.

cyclefoo said on September 16, 2011 at 12:30 PM

jeffjsea30201750 Congratulations on the spotless driving record. I am sure Mayor McGinn has an award for you - maybe it's a bicycle! I'd be happy to twist your facts if you'd come up with a few. So far you're just arguing an emotional point about bicycles being dangerous. My "tunnel vision" sees that argument like this: What makes riding a bicycle dangerous? All the cars I have to share the road with : ) And I am concerned with congestion - which is why I ride my bike to work every day! Your argument that bicycles are increasing congestion is funny. Do you have some data to back that up? Also, I do ride the bus and I do own a hybrid (doing my part, eh?) If the govt decides to charge a fee to ride my bike, I'll gladly pay to ride my "death cycle" on the road with your bicycle-crushing-death-machine (har!)

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 16, 2011 at 11:36 AM

By the way: My driving record has been spotless for over 20 years and there is a reason for that.

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 16, 2011 at 11:35 AM

Cyclefoo - You are missing the point. If you use the road with any vehicle or bicyle you own you should pay your fair share... in proportion... how about that. You have tunnel vision and only read the way you want to interperet. So carry on twisting the facts and my words to defend your right to ride your death cycle. bicycles are hinder our growing traffic congestion problem with impeding traffic and illegal and irresponsible bicyclist practices. Even you admitted you ran a red light and got caught. The majority of us who work and travel cannot do it effectively or efficiently on bicylces. Handlebars do not suffice as passenger seats or child restraint systems. Go find a fun trail to ride you bike like myself and consider our metro bus system if you are concerned about congestion, health, or carbon footprint. ok? We will all be much safer!!!!!! Thankfully green initiatives are creating more efficent automobiles with alternative fuels and a smaller carbon footprint.

tandnreddy said on September 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM

jeffjsea30201750 - if you are near downtown Seattle during the day I invite you to join me for lunch to have a civil conversation on this topic.

cyclefoo said on September 16, 2011 at 11:05 AM

jeffjsea30201750 - I own two cars as well and pay all the same fees you do associated with the privilege of operating them legally in this state. If I'm tracking you, you're saying I should pay just as much to ride my bicycle on the public roadways as I do to keep my car legal? What does that get me that I don't already have? I already have the legal right to be on the roadway. Not sure how cyclists being double-taxed can improve on that : ) Will it somehow stop from doing knuckleheaded things while riding my bike? Probably not since the cops already take care of that. Besides, licensing fees certainly haven't had that affect on automobile drivers ; ) Should we build a million miles of bike lanes? Personally, I don't think we should be spending a bunch of tax money on separate infrastructure for cyclists when we have millions of miles of perfectly good public roads to cycle on. Now, if we used that money to put you on a bicycle and get you out of your car, I might be convinced : )

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 16, 2011 at 9:57 AM

Cyclefoo: You need to dive deeper into your thought process before you speak. The taxes and fees are assessed per car. For instance I own two cars so therefore I pay taxes and fees for two separate cars in order to operate legally on our roadways. SO TO GET IT STRAIGHT.... YOU, AS A CYCLIST, DO NOT PAY TAXES, FEES, ETC., IN PROPORTION. It is now time that cyclists be assessed fees too. Cyclists are given the privelege just like cars to use the road and obey the law. I am happy law enforcement is issuing citations to bicyclists. It is about time. It is now time for the state to implement taxes, licensing, and other fees to cyclists as well. If you don't get the "train tracks" analogy I am not sure if you are thinking and processing what I am saying. Trains are dangerous... they are large in comparison and hard to stop. Just like cars when you thow cyclist into the mix. it is all about safety and negociating out of potentially dangerous situations.

cyclefoo said on September 16, 2011 at 8:58 AM

jeffjsea30201750 - tighten up your own reasoning ... you assume that cyclists do not also own, drive, license, and fuel cars. I know a lot of cyclists but I don't know one who also doesn't own and drive a car. Sure, they're out there, but most of us pay THE SAME AUTOMOBILE TAXES YOU DO ... GET THAT STRAIGHT!!!!! : ) As for your second point ... as the recent recipient of a traffic citation for running a red light on my bicycle in downtown Seattle, I can assure you that cyclists get tickets and are held accountable for the knucklehead things we do. If you are interested, it's $110 fine and Seattle PD makes it pretty clear on the ticket that cyclists are responsible for obeying the same laws a automobile drivers. Finally, I don't really get your "train tracks" argument since Washington State laws give cyclists the same rights to the road as motorists. Maybe you know this, I don't: what are the odds that a car driver will get into an accident on a public road vs those of a cyclist?

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 16, 2011 at 8:28 AM

Here is a great idea if you are concerned about shrinking your carbon footprint: buy a hybrid or a smart car. They have safety equipment. YOUR BICYCLE DOES NOT!!!!

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 16, 2011 at 8:27 AM

Cyclefoo - You are so loose with your reasoning... You are not being rational or reasonable in what you say. 1st off let me correct you. Bicyclists DO NOT PAY THE SAME TAXES AS AUTOMOBILES... GET THAT STRAIGHT!!!!! example: gas tax, registration taxes, car tabs, insurance, the various sales tax including but not limited to: gas guzzler tax, luxury car tax, and so on. 2ndly if you want to compare violations comparing cars to bikes it would need to be a comparison in relation to the number of cars and the number of bikes. a percentage would give us a better snap shot. while cars violate laws and get infractions go to court and pay fines bicyclists in comparison break laws too and are not held accountable. Again, Why would you want to play in the "train tracks" of the road. It is not a matter of "if" it is a matter of "when" you will get seriously hurt while riding your bicycle in traffic. Why would you subject yourself to that?

cyclefoo said on September 16, 2011 at 7:50 AM

Hey all you ragin' cagers: read the state laws; bikes belong! Recall your history: who came first: the bicycle or the car? We've been on the public streets since before the invention of the automobile. We also pay the same taxes as everyone else so we have the right to be on the roads we helped pay for. Also, please pick any intersection in Seattle and count how many traffic violations you actually see - both auto and car. There are idiots on 4 wheels and on 2. OPERATION OF NONMOTORIZED VEHICLES 46.61.750 Effect of regulations -- Penalty. 46.61.755 Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles. 46.61.758 Hand signals. 46.61.760 Riding on bicycles. 46.61.765 Clinging to vehicles. 46.61.770 Riding on roadways and bicycle paths. 46.61.775 Carrying articles. 46.61.780 Lamps and other equipment on bicycles. 46.61.790 Intoxicated bicyclists. 46.61.990 Recodification of sections -- Organization of chapter -- Construction. 46.61.991 Severability -- 1965 ex.s. c

cglenn_200044606 said on September 16, 2011 at 7:27 AM

It saddens me to think that the comments on the bike issue are coming from my fellow Seattleites. The hatred, the sucker-punches and a complete lack of reasonableness. Be ashamed. Who can argue with the fact that cycling is a much healthier alternative (for the human and for the environment) to burning more fuel and generation of more noise and general pollution? Yes, there are cyclists who violate laws of the road, however, there are plenty of us who do not and are advocating for the same. Cars are messy, and as some have said, they're not going to go away. Be it known that bikes are clean, and they are not going to go away. Life isn't supposed to be a battlefield, though. Grow up, people. Don't make my commute a boxing match. We're all here trying our best to survive this life so kindly put your ideals in check. As far as cycling infrastructure and safety go, the reality is, Seattle messed up when they decided that "sharrows" equal bike lanes!

dea3761 said on September 16, 2011 at 5:49 AM

What a waste.

vffrwm said on September 16, 2011 at 4:55 AM

There ya go Mr Mayor lets really waste some valuable time and money. Want to stop the accidents keep those morons on those bicycles off the public streets. All this is going to do is turn into a lets spend more money to help the few that ride bikes. Very similar to the Metro bus garbage about putting a $20 fee on car tabs so that the few that ride the bus get helped by the majority who don't ride the bus. Same thing with the earth muffins on the Schwinns.

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM

meinnovations: You just painted the perfect picture of why bicycles are a dangerous on the road. Again, roads were built for cars by cars and not bikes. With all of the obstacles and hazards you just mentioned what safety features on your bike protect you from common hazards on the road? NONE!!!!! Bikes are less visible as well. My job requires me to travel to make a living and a bike will not accommodate the time I have in a day and I don't think my clients would appreciate a handlebar ride to lunch either. 99% of business is done by motorized transportation. BTW: I often see bikers on their cell phone or sucking down a mocha as well. Why don't you enjoy your bike for recreation like myself and 99% of the population? We all know bikes on the city streets are hazardous and that is why there are not bikers in the masses flocking to the streets. How about we pave an express lane down the middle of the railroad tracks too?

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 15, 2011 at 9:31 PM

Our mayor is clearly anti-car. Fact: cars are the most common mode of transportation and they are not going away and that is what our roads were built for. Fact: Bicyclists are no match for a vehicle. Severe injury or death is immanent. Mayor McGinn has raised parking prices downtown and extended the hours til 8pm at night in order to deter shoppers and visitors from maximizing the revenue stream for downtown Seattle which in return hurts business owners and reduces tax revenues. Kemper Freeman is laughing and inviting everyone to come shop in Bellevue for free! McGinn = 1 term mayor Why is he not focusing on our budget issues and jobs! Shame on you McGinn.

meinnovations said on September 15, 2011 at 9:26 PM

By bike it's something like 55 lights. Not one of them is synchronized for an 18MPH cyclist. Worse, bicyclists can't enjoy the ride. We constantly have to look over our shoulder for the inattentive driver talking on a mobile phone (rarely with a legall mandated headset), reaching for the latte or the fries, or just plain not paying attention. Motorists don't need to dodge puddles, manholes, water grates, gravel, potholes, glass, sand, tire fragments, muffler parts, or any of the other debris that is caused by or falls off of motor vehicles, but has the potential to maim or kill a rider, even before getting run over. And worst, there are the entitled drivers who think they own the road, don't know that cyclists can legally ride two abreast on virtually any road (520, I5, US99 are notable and inconvenient exceptions), and swerve and yell and flip off cyclists because, well, why? How many motorists are maimed or killed by cyclists?

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 15, 2011 at 9:24 PM

Bottom line: roads where built & maintained for cars by cars (i.e. gas tax, licensing, registration, etc.,..) NOT BIKES.... In fact when I was young I don't know how many times I was told not to ride my bike in the road as it is dangerous. Is it not dangerous anymore? If bikes want to share the roads it is time to collect some substantial funds to fund the build out of their needs just like automobile owners. It is not justified to stick it to the vehicle taxes. 1. How about taxes for bike purchases, licensing, endorsements (like motorcycles), insurance for "at fault" liabilities. 2. Impose rider safety courses, enforce the law for riders, etc., etc. With absolutely no regulation and enforcement bicyclists are a huge liability to drivers. 1. Reckless endangerment when running red lights, speeding, weaving between cars, no hand signals when turning, and not yielding to pedestrians. 2. It is more difficult for a vehicle to stop and negotiate around a wreck-less bicyclist.

jeffjsea30201750 said on September 15, 2011 at 9:15 PM

I am not sold on the idea that cars and bicyclists are meant to co-exist. I think the statistics speaks for itself. You don't see express lanes down the middle of the railroad tracks... correct? I also notice many bicyclists do not obey the laws: running red lights, weaving thru traffic, riding on the sidewalks, speeding, no hand signals when turning, attempting to pass vehicles while right signal on taking a right. Why are bicyclists exempt from infractions, license fees, insurance, and safety courses like the rest of the commuters using the road? Automobiles are heavier and harder to stop than bicycles. When bicycles challenge automobiles and put car drivers in liable situations something bad WILL happen. I have never seen a car pass a bicyclist on the right while sharing one lane... have you?

meinnovations said on September 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM

Riding bicycles is the great hope for the US and the world. Bicyclists don't pollute. Bicyclists don't consume fossil fuels keeping us dependent on unstable foreign interests. Bicyclists don't produce CO2, which 95 % of climatologists agree contribute to climate change. Riding bicycles versus driving (many supersizing it or drinking a 700 calorie latte) makes us healthier, driving down skyrocketing healthcare costs from obesity, diabetes, heart disease, lung cancer, and hypertension, to name major ones. Creating bicycling infrastructure creates more jobs per dollar than motor vehicle infrastructure. Twelve bicycles can fit in the space of one motor vehicle travelling on a road. Contrary to many of the comments, bicyclists do NOT have the same rights as motorists. If a cyclist wants to cross 520, it takes a two zone pass to go 2miles. There are no limited access highways for cyclists. My 20mi commute to Kent from Seattle only requires 6 traffic lights by car. Continued...

my2centz said on September 15, 2011 at 7:25 PM

The bikers here are ridiculous. There are bike lanes on most roads and yet they still think that they belong in the lanes with the cars. If you are taking a road w/out a bike lane RIDE YOUR BIKE ON THE EDGE OF THE ROAD and not in traffic!! Start obeying the laws that apply to the rest of us. Why should those of us who have to drive suffer the consequences because of their ignorance? Us drivers want bikers to be safe also. None of us want to be in an accident with them.

stevesemler said on September 15, 2011 at 7:10 PM

If bikers can blow stop signs , why cant I ?

mcd1975272738114 said on September 15, 2011 at 6:18 PM

Wow.....this clown can't be voted out of office soon enough. What an incompetent Mayor. ALL this guy really cares about is bicycles. Please for Heaven's sake people of Seattle, next time vote a man into that office who is capable of leading Seattle, not a man who treats it like his personal bike path!

SeattleRob said on September 15, 2011 at 5:49 PM

What a joke. McGinn needs to get OFF his bike and try driving his car in Seattle. TABS ON BIKES. Get bikes off of major commuter roads with high traffic. Cyclists need to adhere to the laws of the road instead of being jerks all the time. Every morning it is the same routine. Get into the line of cars, have some jackastrisk on a bike roll and squeeze by on the curb lane. Cyclists get to the front of the pack at the light and now a line of cars have to carefully navigate passed the jerk again. How is that fair or legal? My tires are starting to wear down from getting so close to the curb to keep cyclists at bay. ALSO, why do cyclists think rules of the road don't apply to them? How about you have the SPD enforce traffic laws on cyclists?!?!? That will cut down on their fatalities more than getting cars off the roads.

lsmith5870400119 said on September 15, 2011 at 5:38 PM

Mc Schwinn is a joke. I mean he is not on the same page with reality. Seattle, you two deserve each other.

msbetty said on September 15, 2011 at 5:17 PM

Why is McGinn calling this "Bike Summit" -- didn't he recently hire (and for a LOT of money) a bike czar? What is this dude doing? Doesn't McGinn have even higher priorities as mayor of a VERY large city?

subaru said on September 15, 2011 at 4:05 PM

tab and tax bikes , they want safety for bikes oh I know GO RIDE ON A TRAIL!!!

muralgirl3034135 said on September 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM

NO! No more increases on OUR tabs! Make BICYCLISTS pay for some tabs if they want improvements. Not us, I've dealt with a few morons around town. On the waterfront, my boyfriend and I were crossing the street (we had the 'walk' sign-mind you) and a bicyclist nearly ran hard into him. Tell me, how can someone 'not see' a 6'4 man??? Then, I'm entering a left hand turn lane-in my mid-size Dodge truck-and a idiot cyclist sticks his front tire nearly halfway into the lane, forcing me to swerve into oncoming traffic. Keep in mind, a mid-size truck is a little hard to stop on a dime, especially in the rain. The arrogance of some-not all-bikers is *NOT* going to win any points with me. Agian: Cyclists want improvements? Make THEM pay for thier OWN tabs for THIER improvements.......

Sir_Real said on September 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM

Here is a remedy, stop making Seattle more bike friendly! This includes those stupid bike boxes; I don't care how much it cost us tax payers, that's another issue.. someone with black paint needs to have an containment issue right over them! If you want more bike deaths, then the city should continue making it easier to put bicyclist in those situations.

rite2post said on September 15, 2011 at 12:12 PM

furthermore, let's tack on another $20 on car tab, and give that funds for tax breaks on your next purchase of a new bike.

rite2post said on September 15, 2011 at 12:10 PM

let's make all speed limit to 15 mph when bikes are present. Convert one car lane on every road into a bike lane. It's a win win situation.

1beachperson said on September 15, 2011 at 12:01 PM

clear2copy - you're 100% correct. Cyclists need to follow exactly the same laws as vehicles. Vehicle drivers need to be aware there are crazy cyclists and pedestrians out there, and even if you're in the right, you have to watch out for them and probably yield to them because they're too stupid to obey the laws - this includes Mayor McFuzzyFace

coyotebmw said on September 15, 2011 at 12:01 PM

McGinn is a joke! As an avid bicyclist, who also believes in safe riding, I think he is spending too much time concentrating on the car drivers and roads, and not enough on the bicyclist themselves. Cascade Bicycle Club doesn't help the situation either, their efforts lack the concentration on safety, spending too much of their time making money rather than helping bicyclist.

Timbuc said on September 15, 2011 at 12:01 PM

Maybe he can ride a bike up to Lake Conconully with this buds?

detour said on September 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM

clear2copy, I could not agree more.

clear2copy said on September 15, 2011 at 11:26 AM

First thing to be discussed: a red light means STOP.. second thing.. sidewalk vs street. PICK ONE..don't use both with the 'im a car - no - now I'm a bike -no - now I'm a car again'. The third and most important.. It doesn't matter if you think you're right.. 4000 pounds of metal will beat 200 pounds of meat and thin metal tubing EVERYTIME. meeting adjourned.