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Boeing machinists' union claims smoking gun in Charleston move

by GLENN FARLEY / KING 5 News Aviation Specialist

KING5.com

Posted on September 23, 2011 at 2:46 PM

Updated Friday, Sep 23 at 6:01 PM

SEATTLE - In the opinion of the Machinists union, it's a smoking gun: a series of internal Boeing documents presented in the second and third quarters of 2009 that clearly indicate the company was looking to build at least some of its airplanes without interference from the union.

Boeing does not dispute the legitimacy of the documents that are now part of the case brought by the National Labor Relations Board against Boeing. The NLRB accuses the company of breaking the law by moving some 787 production to a non-union plant in North Charleston, S.C.

The documents were meant for the eyes of Boeing's board and senior executives.  In one, the company outlines its strategy as a "solution for establishing long-tem manufacturing capability outside of Puget Sound, starting with a second 787 final assembly line and progressing to the next new airplane program.”

Back-to-back strikes by the Machinists in 2005 and then again in 2008 played a role, to the point where the company said it felt hostage. But at the same time, the documents lay out the pros and cons, classifying the Charleston expansion as high risk, trading away the experienced-but-restive workforce in Everett against inexperienced workers in South Carolina.  The move was also high cost – about $1.5 billion.

But it will be up to an administrative law judge to conclude whether Boeing's move to South Carolina breaks federal labor law that bars companies from uprooting and  moving existing  factories just to avoid unions and whether an expansion to avoid unions constitutes the same violation. 

In a statement, Boeing said, "...these documents confirm what Boeing has said from the outset; that we made a legitimate business decision based on a variety of factors, including the need to ensure our future competitiveness." 

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Comments: Displaying 1 - 15 of 56

realitychk said on October 1, 2011 at 1:25 PM

@SeattleRainn said "Dont work for a union if you dont like them. 'McDonald's is always hiring" The union members do not work FOR the union. They work FOR the company. Note that the workers have a CHOICE of working at a company, BUT the company doesn't have a choice about union extortion. The company is not allowed to hire non-union workers who want to work. And one must be in the union to be there. The company has no choice and neither do the people. The company is not allowed to replace those workers who hate their jobs because the company is forced, by Federal Law, to allow extortion by a union whose members have the choice to work at the company or not. If union members do not like their jobs for any reason, go to a job that suits you more. When one has the idea that people work FOR a union, it shows a serious lack of understanding of where the paychecks come from. Company pays employees then employees pay the union leaders. Company can't make money nobody gets money.

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alki50 said on September 29, 2011 at 9:32 AM

All the union had to do was agree to binding arbitration and this wouldn't have happened. The union decided to show everyone how "tough" they were and they found out the answer.

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nguminh said on September 26, 2011 at 12:11 PM

IF I RUN BOEING, I WOULD DO THE SAME. I REMEMBER WHEN UNION TAKES THE COMPANY HOSTAGE. THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN WHEN THE TABLE TURN AROUND.

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stonetrails said on September 26, 2011 at 5:25 AM

stonetrails avatar

I agree with the Boeing company. I hope they pack-up and leave Seattle, Renton, Kent, and Auburn.

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Rattler said on September 26, 2011 at 1:59 AM

Sad state of affairs for Boeing...that it would feel it necessary to leave Puget sound and risk over a bilion dollars...because the unions are so threatening to to their long term survival. Boeing will win. The 737 is going to be replaced and it will be built in SC. It's about time that Republican congress got busy and started putting enough money on the NLRB to mow the front lawn and no more. Unions killed off the auto industry... now they are working on killing off the taxpayers and the aerospace industry. Perfect.... that puts the entire south in the Republican camp..bye bye Obama!!

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mrmagoo said on September 25, 2011 at 10:15 PM

Unions need to take a hike!! first of all a company owes you nothing but the federal minimum wage, a restroom, running water and certain items to do your job for them!! thats it !!! so if you don't like that your employer does not give you medical ins, vacation pay, sick pay, holiday pay or retirement then don't work for them!!!!

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SeattleRainn said on September 25, 2011 at 12:52 PM

Dont work for a union if you dont like them. 'McDonald's is always hiring"

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Mikeg said on September 25, 2011 at 12:38 PM

The Union has already helped with the delay of the 787. The Charleston area got hit hard with the 2005 BRAC, so it is a good thing that Boeing built their new plant there.

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denkoko said on September 25, 2011 at 12:18 PM

SO...Unions have outlived there usfulness??? Unions make it hard for company`s to do business??? Lets see...Did the corporation republican Pirates give you the 40 hour work week??? Did the corporate republican Pirates give you PAID vacations and Hollidays??? Did the corporation republican Pirates give you Group Insurance and Sick Pay??? Did yhe corporate republican Pirates give you ANY BENEFITS???. i wish there was a longer word fpr NO other than N-O. The republican Pirates in the USA have given the middle class worker NOTHING THAT THE UNIONS DID NOT HAVE TO WORK FOR !!!! Unions are no stronger than their membership. SO. Stay strong, or..THE republican PIRATES WILL TAKE IT ALL !!! FROMN YOU !!!!

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maynerdgkrebbs said on September 25, 2011 at 7:03 AM

To those posting if Boeing leaves it is not the end other businesses will come. What business would come ? The anti business climate in AMERICA is heard every day .Just listen to the news how Progressive Democrats state how bad business is. The state of WA. is also anti business due to the hard core Democrat enviro stands,don't dig her,don't build here,buy the land but use only a small part of it. I am not in favor of pavement every where,but some concessions will need to be made,if not many will move to work for Boeing in Texas or the Carolina's.

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dakotanative said on September 24, 2011 at 11:48 PM

Sacramento lost 2 bases and a third just down the road, but I don't recall them turning out the lights. Boeing leaving might wake up a few people, and would be a major hit to the unions, but the hard workingt folks would still be around.

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wethreesing46981 said on September 24, 2011 at 10:28 PM

Unions have outlived their usefullness. The only thing they do is keep some people in a job as union reps that don't have to get a real job to make a living. The reason there are no steel mills in Pittsburgh....unions. The reason Detroit is a ghost town...unions. The reason Boeing will eventually completely leave Washington...unions.

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antisocialist said on September 24, 2011 at 8:39 PM

Union cancer...time for surgery. Save America....cut out the cancer...kill the unions!

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 7:57 PM

psst.... read the whole post next time brother ; )

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 7:56 PM

Remainingreal... if you read through my post.... you'd see that was precisely the point I was making : ) I started it with someone elses post. For heavens sake there soldier... FRIENDLY FIRE! FRIENDLY FIRE!

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remainingreal said on September 24, 2011 at 7:25 PM

@yessir-the union competition is what gives you all your 401Ks and cushy stuff . Without that competition and your company having to meet those standards, you'd be working for minimum wage and begging for benefits. So don't tell me that getting rid of unions will make it better for you. And LOOK at what goes on around this state. It would become a GHOST TOWN in most of the state if Boeing did leave. You have no idea how much of Boeing is around here. Yeah, Microsoft would still be here, but you have to be special to work there. It would tank this state big time. It drives MANY economies by the people who make the money and spend it here. So to this I say, NO, sir.

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 6:52 PM

True Dat fwdace... Once upon a time Boeing's departure would have undone the city, but things have diversified dramatically since then. It'd most certainly be a hit. It most certainly wouldn't be the end, or anything close to it.

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fwpdace said on September 24, 2011 at 6:36 PM

The remark "WHEN BOEING SHUTS DOWN SEATTLE SHUTS DOWN" Today is a "WIFES TALE"Yes if they did it would hurt for a while, but do not think we would be "DOOMED"SEATTLE NEEDS TO REALIZE" THERE ARE OTHER FISH IN THE SEA"! No question,BOEING WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO"You and I will not be able to stop the future!!

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realitychk said on September 24, 2011 at 6:04 PM

Not a smoking gun at all. This headline is a Fail. The docs show a business decision. No production was moved out of Everett, a NEW site was developed. One of the reasons for the site (to avoid being held hostage by employees who don't quit the job they hate so much and can't be fired for not showing up at work) violates absolutely nothing.

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conseula said on September 24, 2011 at 5:28 PM

@timbucto..When Boeing shuts down/Seattle shuts down.. Surely you remember in the 70's and the sign on the freeway that read WILL THE LAST PERSON LEAVING SEATTLE TURN OUT THE LIGHTS!

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dakotanative said on September 24, 2011 at 4:29 PM

Unions have done a lot for America. They have raised the minimum wage less than three fold while driving house and car prices 10 fold more. Congratulations.

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banditrider said on September 24, 2011 at 3:40 PM

Its so easy now for corporations to pick up and move. Boeing is one of the few american corporations left that actually manufacture something and export it. Even China is losing some manufacturing to countries like Thailand and Vietnam. Any unions there? How about OSHA and WSHA? Do employees sue the company because they don't get promoted? Where are the green jobs Obama promised us? (lets not talk about that solar panel company, shhh!)

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jackwong said on September 24, 2011 at 11:59 AM

this should warn all the companies out there, moving companies to avoid unions doesnt pay!!! greedy corporate ceo!!!

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 10:45 AM

ti3ber said on September 24, 2011 at 10:22 AM I'm not Union and I have a pretty good 401k, good healthcare and I don't have to pay ridiculous dues to get those things have you considered that those unions actually provide the competitive benchmark that provides your pay and benefits? In a sense you are enjoying the fruits of the hard work and contributions of others. Remove the union competition, and there will be less incentive to match said pay and benefits. The market value of you, as a worker will decline, and subsequently, so will your pay and benefits. Some will try to delude you that all the ills of labor are in the past.... that conditions cannot backslide due to government regulation. Remember... those same corporations are actively trying to undo government regulation as well.

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ti3ber said on September 24, 2011 at 10:22 AM

I'm not Union and I have a pretty good 401k, good healthcare and I don't have to pay ridiculous dues to get those things. Ridding ourselves of, or least limiting the Unions will not lead to Armageddon, in fact all the Union workers I know would prefer not being forced into a Union.

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 9:34 AM

Ok... that was an inappropriate question... apologies

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 9:29 AM

Timbuc... I'm curious... do you have teeth?

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dakotanative said on September 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM

These are new jobs, not moved jobs. And nobody said he workers can go out the SC to work just like they would move if the plant went to, say, Moses Lake. There would be no complaints then. There is mo reason to debate that Boeing left to dump the union and get tax breaks. The debate should be about a company working where it wants. If companies have to work in a union state, SC would have no jobs and the union states would use all be broke fighting for it.

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Timbuc said on September 24, 2011 at 8:19 AM

I hope Boeing shots down 100% in puget sound and moves to Mexico or Italy. UNIONS are whats breaking this country

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 7:46 AM

Why the rush to give up your health benefits? Why the rush to destroy your own pensions, and once that's accomplished, then your neighbors? Why the rush to demand that your neighbors should work for less pay? When Wall Street CEO's and Bankers nearly wreck our economy, you are told it's actually the teachers, cops and firemen's fault? Who's sold you on that stupid bill of goods? Who's somehow convinced you that it's somehow patriotic to let your employers rake you over the coals and turn against your neighbors? And you're buying it. Thank heavens these blogs don't yet represent the majority.

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yessir said on September 24, 2011 at 7:39 AM

@vffrm.... "I hope these unions keep up the pressure. Some morning they will wake up and go to an empty building and then they can get up and tell their memebers that because of their greed those jobs are gone". it amazes me that you actually wish for devastation to local economies and families because it fulfills your economic/political ideologies. These aren't some nebulous union robots... these are local workers... people... who have children. Who live in the apartments, condos and homes around you. Who go to soccer games and school bake sales. When did all this petty hatred invade our society? It's utterly sickening.

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vffrwm said on September 24, 2011 at 6:43 AM

I hope these unions keep up the pressure. Some morning they will wake up and go to an empty building and then they can get up and tell their memebers that because of their greed those jobs are gone and go ahead and file for your unemployment. Mean while the folks in the Carolinas will have something they haven't had. Steady, good paying long term jobs. This is the United States of America and a company can move it's operations whenever and wherever it wants. I wouldn't blame them if they moved them to China like GE did. Keep it up folks and your going to find yourself on the outside looking in. The administration is Washington DC is going to change in 2012 and hopefully here as well. We can get rid of your bought and paid for govenor and get someone in there who can lead and manage. Keep it up folks your going to put yourselves right out of a job. And good jobs at that.

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ddw3579 said on September 24, 2011 at 1:46 AM

It sucks for those minimum wage earners (or pennys above it) at grocery stores having to pay union dues. They could work at a restaurant and make more. Where are the people standing outside Walmart asking people to sign a petition to make Washington a Right-to-Work state? Union memberships are already down 50% since the early 80s. Why not help them the rest of the way? Unions are like a loaded gun: have a purpose in the right hands but the power can corrupt in the wrong hands.

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ti3ber said on September 24, 2011 at 1:21 AM

The unions may or may not be better trained but they are certainly lazier. Have you ever seen a roadside work project, there are usually 3 or 4 guys standing around watching someone else work, and god forbid a non-union manager or supervisor were to come by and ask them to get to work, the Union would crucify him or her. Bloated pensions have bankrupt the USPS, forced the US to bailout GM, and our Government agencies are inefficient due to bulletproof union employees. Yes, Unions had their time, but fortunately most states have employed labor laws that prohibit most of the extreme work conditions that existed before Unions, it's time for Unions to go.

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lsmith5870400119 said on September 23, 2011 at 10:05 PM

Seattle, turn out the lights, the party's over.

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fwpdace said on September 23, 2011 at 9:03 PM

Does anyone remember this:'WILL THE LAST TO LEAVE SEATTLE PLEASE TURN OUT THE LIGHTS"????? This was a saying on roadside bill boards put upon the shoulders of "BOEING COROPORATE IN 1973! BOEING DID SURVIVE THAT FIASKO! Today we have a lawsuite over the Union at BOEING .WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMMING TOO??? Wake up,it seems, "BOEING IS MAKEING A STATEMENT FOR THE FUTURE"!! DO YOU REALLY THINK BOEING PUT AN AIRPLANE PLANT IN THE SOUTH BECAUSE OF THE WEATHER??????? PLEASE THINK AGAIN!!!

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maynerdgkrebbs said on September 23, 2011 at 8:40 PM

So let's play this out. Boeing goes bankrupt ,does away with the union contracts,moves to mexico. Works for me. The unions should really look at the mess they have caused .Any teamsters driving trucks these days? How about steel plants ? How about auto manufacturing? The only one making a profit is Ford and they did NOT take any federal money,but the union is after them now,watch them move to Brazil. Ford has a great plant in Brazil already. Take a look around at the education in AMERICA. Was it better in the 50's and 60's before unions? Remember the pride,and power of the AMERICAN work force. This was all before unions. Now manufacturing has moved to other countries. Thanks to unions and enviro groups.

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arcticfireguy said on September 23, 2011 at 6:46 PM

Why should "ANYONE" be required to use Union Labor? This is insane... Take Boeing to court because they don't want to use your "Employment Club". Is it any wonder that manufacturing is leaving the USA?

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tomb12345 said on September 23, 2011 at 6:04 PM

yessir, When new employees show up in Everett they are trained by experience technicians,as any production plant would do.New employees make mistakes Everett,I am sure. Charleston has built a new training facility for new Boeing employees.The training is paid by potential employees.No guarantee employment. Remember Boeing only has a goal of 2 to 3 787 a year. Boeing is not stupid. They have transferred many Boeing employees from Everett. The southeast has many airframe workers who worked in the military and the private sector. This mixing bag of new employees will be a positive work force.

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yessir said on September 23, 2011 at 5:48 PM

Not certain what happened to the employees in question. I was left with the impression from the Boeing workers I talked to that these guys didn't seem to know any better, so it was used as a teaching point. Listen... people are people... and I'm sure there's good folks down there. As far as general quality of work goes, sorry... I'll go with the PNW and union employees.

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tomb12345 said on September 23, 2011 at 5:30 PM

When you reflect all S.C. workers act this way I call it as I see it. As any company would they should be reprimanded or fired. IF this did happen.Remember it was Everett workers who left foreign material in an electrical system which caused a 787 make an emergency landing in Texas.

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Sir_Real said on September 23, 2011 at 5:22 PM

Boeing workers who are upset or feel Boeing owns them can quit.

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yessir said on September 23, 2011 at 5:16 PM

tomb... this was reported to me directly from the Boeing workers who witnessed it. And I won't refer to you as "an idiot" sir.

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tomb12345 said on September 23, 2011 at 4:54 PM

We have a unqualified person making comments on this board.Claiming Charleston workers are screwing up with rivet guns.Who are you an idiot?I am a retired civilian Navy worker who worked nuclear submarine refueling.I am from Charleston and we took pride in our work.We were rated above Puget Sound every year I was there.We were closed because the Navy wanted to privatize most of its work to Norfolk,which it has.They kept Puget Sound open to cut up our old submarines.Sub Cutters ha,ha. The union doesn't train the workers the company does.Unions are good for making sure enough bathrooms are in the building, how many breaks a worker gets and promotions are done fairly, not training.I payed my union dues in the past it wasn't worth it.They only bothered me to vote democrat

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yessir said on September 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM

hourforum... is this really about you being right? Oh brother.

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oldlewy said on September 23, 2011 at 4:31 PM

I've never heard anyone complain about the work being off loaded to other countries. Would that have been better?

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zekeman said on September 23, 2011 at 4:29 PM

Having worked with union and non-union, I beleive the union workers are trained to be better technicians than non-union. They are required to obtain the necessary training to do the job correctly. I don't think I would fly on a plane that was not built by qualified and trained union personnel.

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yessir said on September 23, 2011 at 4:27 PM

What started as a good idea? Corporate America didn't think unions were a good idea back then either, slaughtering union workers on the docks of Everett.The "unions used to be a good idea, but are no longer needed" ideology is terribly misled. People paid in blood for the working rights you take for granted today. You think it can't slip away? It already is. You've ousted your unions, and your pensions have vanished. Some southeast states are trying to undo child labor laws. Corporations have "bought" news media where you are told if you don't cut your pay and eliminate your benefits, you'll lose your job. So, in a panic, you give up pay, benefits, pensions. They convince you 401K's are as good. They aren't. Unchallenged, corporations will start undoing existing government workers safety nets. Think it can't happen? It can happen fast.... and when it does... it'll take decades and blood to once again claim it.

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hourforum said on September 23, 2011 at 4:13 PM

I TOLD YOU ALL SO!!! yes I did. NOW we KNOW you know for a fact, boeing moved AFTER getting tens of millions of dollars in tax breaks in Washington state THEN to MOVE the 7E7 plant to South Carolinia., Getting tax breaks there too? wow- so, what the news article said was an expense for boeing to move- they did not subtract the tax breaks for Washington and for south carolinia.. so subtract some 400 million more. Point is- not one of your jokers believed me.. NOW YOU DO

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Poster said on September 23, 2011 at 4:10 PM

I can only say this: I will never build a business and allow the Unions to come in, take part of my profits in the form of dues extracted from inflated wages, and tell me how I have to run the personnel operations of MY business. I will always keep my employee numbers below the amount that allows the Unions to come in and demand a Union vote from employees. What started as a good idea has progressed to the most corrupt entity allowed by law. No company or government entity should EVER be REQUIRED to conduct business with Unions, and no employee should ever be forced to pay money to a Union as a condition of having a job (as is the case with many government jobs). How this practice is still legal is beyond me. You'll have to ask the "more enlightened" Democrats who keep passing Union-friendly legislation as a thank you for the millions in campaign donations (Fact: 6 of the top 10 political contributors from 89-2010 are Unions, only 1 is a corporation. source: OpenSecret)

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yessir said on September 23, 2011 at 3:42 PM

South Carolina's "inexperienced" workers were certainly not the business boom Boeing had hoped for. Supervisors caught them rivoting through expensive composite parts (an action that would have eventually resulted in complete failure of the part... potentially in flight). To counter this, the supervisors literally took away the rivot guns of those teams working with the composite parts... the next day they found them trying to hammer rivots through the same expensive parts. You get what you pay for... and when you try to pay dirt wages... you get dirt employees.

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clayt said on September 23, 2011 at 3:38 PM

As stated in the article "But it will be up to an administrative law judge to conclude whether Boeing's move to South Carolina breaks federal labor law that bars companies from uprooting and moving existing factories just to avoid unions and whether an expansion to avoid unions constitutes the same violation." . Boeing did not "uproot" an existing factory, they built a new one. If it was a decision based on a new business model, or just to get away from the unions does not matter I believe the courts will find in favor of Boeing. . Unions had thier place at one time, but with all the laws in place to protect the workers, it is time to disolve the unions. They are now more of a hinderance than a help.

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ramigo said on September 23, 2011 at 3:26 PM

Boeing is the hostage to union's greed and lack of rationality.

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hewhoo said on September 23, 2011 at 3:11 PM

So according the machinists, Boeing is required to build all of its future plants forever in the Seattle area? I think the unions in Detroit thought that, too. That's why so many cars and their parts are now manufactured in Tennessee and other southern non - union cities as well as Mexico ...and how the unions had to take it in the shorts when GM and Chrysler got their bankruptcy actions at the start of this recession.

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palinsux said on September 23, 2011 at 3:06 PM

chuckstr76.... And Boeing DOES NOT own the machinist union or Boeing workers. Even though they think they do.......

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chuckstr76 said on September 23, 2011 at 2:57 PM

Hello....The machinist union DOES NOT own Boeing...

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